ISO 14000 Digest Monday, 9 October 1995 Volume 01 : Number 004
In this issue:
Re: ISO 14000/Source documentation
Corporate Environmental Management Systems (fwd)
Copyright on ISO14000
Introduction
Re: Copyright on ISO14000
Re: Copyright on ISO14000
Initial Evaluation
Re: Copyright on ISO14000
Re: Copyright on ISO14000
FYI....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: E-Media
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 03:47:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: ISO 14000/Source documentation
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995 CEEM@aol.com wrote:
> Claire Parins wrote:
>
> >Is there a way to get a copy of the draft standards without >paying for
> them? I
> >have contacted the EPA's main library and searched the >internet but have
> had
> >little luck.
>
> I don't think there is any way to get them. The standards themselves are
> copyrighted and ANSI holds it for the US. If you do find a way, please let
> me know.
>
And, if you "find a way", then there should be a copyright attorney and
a cop right behind you, because you'll be breaking the law. If you "find
a way", you'd better not tell me, 'cuz I'll turn you in in a flash. We
all know that if it was YOUR copyright someone was trying to "find a way"
to subvert, you'd be all over 'em. Same thing here. So, do the right thing!
------------------------------
From: "Bill Casti, \"The Czar of QUALITY.ORG\""
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 12:51:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Corporate Environmental Management Systems (fwd)
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 12:11:08 -0400
From: mba@nsm.umass.edu
Subject: Corporate Environmental Management Systems
The University of Massachusetts School of Management and Bureau Veritas
Quality International present an Intensive Course on:
Corporate Environmental Management Systems: Preparing for ISO 14000
FMI, see http://www-vms.oit.umass.edu/~mba/
Sincerely,
Victoria White
------------------------------
From:
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 13:49:39 -0400
Subject: Copyright on ISO14000
Its interesting to hear the discussion on holding copyrights to ISO 14000.
ISO 14000 can be bought from ASQC at a nice profit to ASQC. However, ASQC
was not the writer of the standards. The standards were written by a large
group of industry representatives. These representatives were supported, NOT
by ASQC but rather by their individual companies. Once the standards are
published, many of those individuals will leave the companies that supported
their effort and go out and become consultants and make a lot of money off
their association with development of the standards. And ASQC will make a
lot of money selling the standards, as it does in so many other things.
Why there's so much support on this discussion list for supporting ASQC's
right to sell these documents that were paid for by others I don't know. But
I do know that its bad for industry overall. These standards were developed
by people worldwide from companies that spent a lot of money to develop them.
Why that same industry should now have to turn around and buy from ASQC the
standards they paid to develop is beyond me. I see a lot of people getting
rich at this. And at the same time I hear a lot of environmentalists saying
these standards will be counterproductive to the cleanup and preservation of
the environment. But that's another issue.
jlsprof@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Tony Mack <74632.2077@compuserve.com>
Date: 07 Oct 95 15:22:32 EDT
Subject: Introduction
On 6 Oct 1995, Tony Mack wrote:
> OK Bill - in the spirit of introducing ourselves as you requested.
> I'm Tony Mack, and I am VP of Product Development & Quality for Fabri-Kal
> Corporation, a mfg of plastic packaging. We are headquartered in Kalamazoo, MI
> with plants in Hazleton, PA and Greenville, SC.
> My interest in ISO14000 is just to stay abreast of things. Our company, by the
> nature of our products, which do not have the best image (largely undeserved,
> but that is another list), is very sensitive to environmental issues, so we want
> to be current with all environmental activities. If ISO 14000 gives us a chance
> to demonstrate our adherence to environmental standards in an objective,
> scientific, quality approach, then we want to be on top of it. As with
> ISO9000, there is also the chance that our big food customers will ask us about
> certification to ISO14000, so we need to be knowledgeable. I look forward to
> the discussion on this list.
>
> Tony Mack
> 74632.2077@compuserve.com
> Visit our homepage at http://www.scicons.com/Fabri-Kal/FK.html
>
>
------------------------------
From: E-Media
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:30:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Copyright on ISO14000
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995 JLSProf@aol.com wrote:
> Its interesting to hear the discussion on holding copyrights to ISO 14000.
> ISO 14000 can be bought from ASQC at a nice profit to ASQC. However, ASQC
> was not the writer of the standards. The standards were written by a large
> group of industry representatives. These representatives were supported, NOT
> by ASQC but rather by their individual companies. Once the standards are
> published, many of those individuals will leave the companies that supported
> their effort and go out and become consultants and make a lot of money off
> their association with development of the standards. And ASQC will make a
> lot of money selling the standards, as it does in so many other things.
>
> Why there's so much support on this discussion list for supporting ASQC's
> right to sell these documents that were paid for by others I don't know. But
> I do know that its bad for industry overall. These standards were developed
> by people worldwide from companies that spent a lot of money to develop them.
> Why that same industry should now have to turn around and buy from ASQC the
> standards they paid to develop is beyond me. I see a lot of people getting
> rich at this. And at the same time I hear a lot of environmentalists saying
> these standards will be counterproductive to the cleanup and preservation of
> the environment. But that's another issue.
>
> jlsprof@aol.com
>
The issue is not who makes money out of selling them, but the fact
that they are COPYRIGHTED and it is, therefore, ILLEGAL to copy them.
The argument would be the same even if YOU held the copyright and were
selling them for less than the cost of printing them. ASQC does not
hold the copyright on the ISO documents. The copyrights in the US are
held by "...the American National Standards Institute (ANSI), under
an exclusive licensing agreement withe the International Standards
Organization (ISO)." That means that both ASQC and ANSI pay a
percentage of the sale price of each copy to ISO, for the right to
have sold it. That's known as their "license right", and it is both
contractual and perfectly legal, no matter who did the research and
wrote the material. Yours is a straw man argument and bears no legal,
moral or ethical basis in comtemporary jurisprudence.
Put another way: if I contract with you to produce documentation for
the processes are my company, that documentation then belongs to ME,
not to you. The researchers and industry gurus who worked on these
documents did so with the full understanding of who would "own" the
resultant product.
I don't know what your beef is with ASQC, ANSI or the International
ISO Organization, nor do I care. But, a copyright is a copyright and
is legally enforceable, as it should be. I don't want people xeroxing
my next book, just because they think I might make a lot of money off
it, because I used some materials researched by other people, so I
copyright my books, articles and such. Let us know the next time you
write a book or article, so we can copy it and distribute it
willy-nilly, and we'll see how much you like it.
BTW, ASQC makes about 10% over their cost on each standard they sell,
so no one's making out like a bandit here.
Regards.
Bill
============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Voicemail: (703) 513-5673
Associated Quality Consultants Fax: (703) 716-0479
Reston, Virginia Email: e_media@cais.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
See the "Hire Bill Casti!" homepage at: http://www.casti.com/casti/Bill.html
============================================================================
------------------------------
From: Jennifer Myers
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 13:39:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Copyright on ISO14000
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, E-Media wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Oct 1995 JLSProf@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Its interesting to hear the discussion on holding copyrights to ISO 14000.
> > ISO 14000 can be bought from ASQC at a nice profit to ASQC. However, ASQC
> > was not the writer of the standards. The standards were written by a large
> > group of industry representatives. These representatives were supported, NOT
> > by ASQC but rather by their individual companies. Once the standards are
> > published, many of those individuals will leave the companies that supported
> > their effort and go out and become consultants and make a lot of money off
> > their association with development of the standards. And ASQC will make a
> > lot of money selling the standards, as it does in so many other things.
> >
> > Why there's so much support on this discussion list for supporting ASQC's
> > right to sell these documents that were paid for by others I don't know. But
> > I do know that its bad for industry overall. These standards were developed
> > by people worldwide from companies that spent a lot of money to develop them.
> > Why that same industry should now have to turn around and buy from ASQC the
> > standards they paid to develop is beyond me. I see a lot of people getting
> > rich at this. And at the same time I hear a lot of environmentalists saying
> > these standards will be counterproductive to the cleanup and preservation of
> > the environment. But that's another issue.
> >
> > jlsprof@aol.com
> >Hi. I'm wondering, where you have heard (or read?) environmentalists
saying that the standards will be counterproductive to the cleanup and
preservation of the environment. Do you have any specific citations in
the newspapers, magazines, journals or books that I could document for my
research paper? Thanks. Jennifer Myers
jmyers1@emerald.tufts.edu
> > The issue is not who makes money
out of selling them, but the fact
> that they are COPYRIGHTED and it is, therefore, ILLEGAL to copy them.
> The argument would be the same even if YOU held the copyright and were
> selling them for less than the cost of printing them. ASQC does not
> hold the copyright on the ISO documents. The copyrights in the US are
> held by "...the American National Standards Institute (ANSI), under
> an exclusive licensing agreement withe the International Standards
> Organization (ISO)." That means that both ASQC and ANSI pay a
> percentage of the sale price of each copy to ISO, for the right to
> have sold it. That's known as their "license right", and it is both
> contractual and perfectly legal, no matter who did the research and
> wrote the material. Yours is a straw man argument and bears no legal,
> moral or ethical basis in comtemporary jurisprudence.
>
> Put another way: if I contract with you to produce documentation for
> the processes are my company, that documentation then belongs to ME,
> not to you. The researchers and industry gurus who worked on these
> documents did so with the full understanding of who would "own" the
> resultant product.
>
> I don't know what your beef is with ASQC, ANSI or the International
> ISO Organization, nor do I care. But, a copyright is a copyright and
> is legally enforceable, as it should be. I don't want people xeroxing
> my next book, just because they think I might make a lot of money off
> it, because I used some materials researched by other people, so I
> copyright my books, articles and such. Let us know the next time you
> write a book or article, so we can copy it and distribute it
> willy-nilly, and we'll see how much you like it.
>
> BTW, ASQC makes about 10% over their cost on each standard they sell,
> so no one's making out like a bandit here.
>
>
> Regards.
> Bill
>
>
> ============================================================================
> Bill Casti, CQA Voicemail: (703) 513-5673
> Associated Quality Consultants Fax: (703) 716-0479
> Reston, Virginia Email: e_media@cais.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See the "Hire Bill Casti!" homepage at: http://www.casti.com/casti/Bill.html
> ============================================================================
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: griffinp@dircon.co.uk (Peter Griffin)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 18:58:29 +0100
Subject: Initial Evaluation
Hi All,
Does anybody have any good advice on "how to" perform an initial evaluation
to identify the environmental elements relevant to a particular company. Is
it just a matter of looking and asking dumb questions ? Any advice would be
most welcome.
Does anybody have a up-to-date list of ISO14000 series and their anticipated
publication dates?
Any info on the EC's EMAS Scheme ?
Regards to you all,
Peter Griffin
*********************************************************************
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ | P Griffin & Associates
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ |
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ | griffinp@dircon.co.uk
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ | Tel (0) 1525 716767
_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ | Fax (0) 1525 716868
*********************************************************************
Try http://www.quality.co.uk/quality/
*********************************************************************
------------------------------
From: griffinp@dircon.co.uk (Peter Griffin)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 21:24:39 +0100
Subject: Re: Copyright on ISO14000
This discussion group is supposed to be about ISO14000 & Eco Management
Systems, WHAT HAS COPYRIGHT GOT TO DO WITH ISO14000 ???
Answer NOTHING !!!!!
How about sticking slightly closer to the point.
Why not post something useful, e.g. a list of the elements of ISO14000
series available for purchase, the vendors and the prices. I was not aware
that the final version of ISO14001/2 had been published, has it ??
Peter Griffin
*********************************************************************
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ | P Griffin & Associates
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ |
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ | griffinp@dircon.co.uk
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ | Tel (0) 1525 716767
_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ | Fax (0) 1525 716868
*********************************************************************
Try http://www.quality.co.uk/quality/
*********************************************************************
------------------------------
From: tres@azstarnet.com (Tres English)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:52:49 -0600
Subject: Re: Copyright on ISO14000
The point, if I understand the arguments, is that ISO14000 is not public
knowledge, even though these standards will be/are being adopted by
industry and government alike.
I am greatly troubled by the idea of private and "secret" regulations
having such far-reaching consequences as these world-wide environmental
standards might have. And personally, I don't care what the law says.
This is an moral and ethical, i.e. and environmental, issue.
Tres
>This discussion group is supposed to be about ISO14000 & Eco Management
>Systems, WHAT HAS COPYRIGHT GOT TO DO WITH ISO14000 ???
>Answer NOTHING !!!!!
>
>How about sticking slightly closer to the point.
>
>Why not post something useful, e.g. a list of the elements of ISO14000
>series available for purchase, the vendors and the prices. I was not aware
>that the final version of ISO14001/2 had been published, has it ??
>
>Peter Griffin
>
>*********************************************************************
> _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ | P Griffin & Associates
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ |
> _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ | griffinp@dircon.co.uk
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ | Tel (0) 1525 716767
> _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ | Fax (0) 1525 716868
>*********************************************************************
> Try http://www.quality.co.uk/quality/
>*********************************************************************
>
>
Tres English
902 N Bryant, Tucson AZ 85711 USA
V/Fx:1-520-881-8712
tres@azstarnet.com
------------------------------
From: "Bill Casti, \"The Czar of QUALITY.ORG\""
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 00:21:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FYI....
If you have ANY questions about the following press release, please
contact ONLY the person specified at the bottom of the release. I
don't know any more about it than what it written below.
- -------------------------- Forwarded Message ------------------------
UMASS OFFERS ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT SEMINAR
The School of Management at the University of Massachusetts in
conjunction with Bureau Veritas Quality International will offer an
intensive five-day course for managers on developing, implementing,
and auditing a corporate environmental management system that
complies with the new ISO 14000 standards.
The course will be offered November 6-10 at the UMass campus.
Additional sessions in 1996 are scheduled for Jan. 15-19 and Feb.
5-9 at UMass.
ISO 14000 is a set of voluntary international standards for
corporate environmental management systems much like the ISO 9000
standards for quality management systems.
Bureau Veritas Quality International (N.A.), (BVQI), of Jamestown,
New York, is a subsidiary of Bureau Veritas, a leading
international quality registrar headquartered in Paris. BVQI has
registered over 6,000 companies to ISO 9000 and over 60 to BS
7750/ISO 14001. BVQI is accredited to issue EMS registration
through the NACCB (UK) and RVC (Holland). It is also an accredited
EMAS verifier under the European Community Eco Management and Audit
Scheme.
The five-day course, which is based on a BVQI IaA-approved course
given in Europe, will outline the need for implementing an
environmental management system; examine the various tools and
approaches companies might use to develop such a system; analyze
the elements of ISO 14000 and explore their regulatory and legal
implications; and train participants in assessing environmental
management systems in accordance with existing standards.
"This course is the first of its kind in this country," says John
French, BVQI consultant and environmental auditor, "in that it
combines the expertise of the University with that of the private
sector to provide training in the field of environmental management
and quality system registration, the first step in obtaining a
recognized qualification in this area."
The course, which carries three graduate credits or four continuing
education units, would also be of value to consultants wishing to
assist clients in building their systems and individuals wishing to
become qualified environmental assessors.
In addition to French, other presenters for the course include 3
from UMass: Alan Robinson, Professor of quality and operations
management, and Stephen Demski, director of the office of graduate
and external programs at the School of Management, both of whom are
principal investigators for a U.S. EPA-sponsored study of the
impact of ISO 14000 on U.S. trade; and Easwar Iyer, associate
professor of marketing, whose research and consulting is primarily
in the field of "green" or environmental marketing. Frank Consoli,
formerly director of environmental quality and delivery systems at
Scott Paper Company, and a recognized expert in life-cycle
assessment and environmental design, will also serve as a
presenter.
______________________________________________________________
For more information, contact Heather Miller: hmiller@som.umass.edu
______________________________________________________________
- --------------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------------------
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
- Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
- List Moderator, "TQM in Manufacturing and Service Industries"
- Chairman, Electronic Media
ASQC Section 0511 (Northern VA) Section Email: E-media@quality.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
See the "Hire Bill Casti" homepage at: http://www.casti.com/casti/Bill.html
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUALITY RESOURCES ONLINE at: http://www.quality.org/qc
=============================================================================
------------------------------
End of ISO 14000 Digest V1 #4
*****************************