iso14000-digest Sunday, February 7 1999 Volume 02 : Number 045
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:09:33 +0800
From: "Mayson Lee"
Subject: [none]
subscribe iso14000-digest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:56:00 -0500
From: "Bursley, Juanita M"
Subject: [none]
To the ISO group:
Does anyone have a copy of the drafted ISO 14031 model regarding
environmental performance evaluation that was released in 1997? While
I'd like to now where to obtain a full copy for future reference, I have
an immediate need for a copy of the Annex to ISO 14031 that provides
numerous examples of measures and indicators. My e:mail address and fax
number are given below if anyone can provide this information to me.
Thanks in advance!
Juanita Bursley
Juanita.Bursley@UCAR.com
FAX: 216-676-2697 (U.S.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:07:37 -0500
From: "Connie G. Ritzert"
Subject: RE: ISO 14031
Juanita: ISO 14031 is now in the final balloting process before being
released as an international standard this summer. ( It is officially now
FDIS 14031). As such, it is only available to ISO TC207 members, including
members of the U.S. TAG, for purposes of responding to this final ballot.
The standard has changed substantively since the version in 1997 to which
you refer. There is also a companion Technical Report in preparation ( ISO
TR 14032) which provides "real life" examples of environmental performance
evaluation. This document is intended to be published on the same schedule
as 14031. I am a U.S Expert on this Subcommittee and am giving a workshop
on the subject at the ESI-99 meeting in Las Vegas in March, so if you need
additional information, please feel free to contact me.
Connie Ritzert critzert@fyi.net
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bursley, Juanita M [SMTP:Juanita.Bursley@ucar.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:56 PM
To: ISO14000@quality.org
Subject:
To the ISO group:
Does anyone have a copy of the drafted ISO 14031 model regarding
environmental performance evaluation that was released in 1997? While
I'd like to now where to obtain a full copy for future reference, I have
an immediate need for a copy of the Annex to ISO 14031 that provides
numerous examples of measures and indicators. My e:mail address and fax
number are given below if anyone can provide this information to me.
Thanks in advance!
Juanita Bursley
Juanita.Bursley@UCAR.com
FAX: 216-676-2697 (U.S.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:55:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Prachi Mehta
Subject: [none]
unsubscribe iso14000-digest
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:30:52 -0000
From: "Matthias Gelber"
Subject: ISO 14001 and the Pharmaceutical Industry
I wonder whether anyone has an idea about the scale of ISO 14001
implementation and certification in the Pharmaceutical Industry?
Matthias Gelber
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:11:06 -0500
From: "Schirf, Gregory A"
Subject: MISDIRECTED MESSAGES
For some reason, I have been getting "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" messages.
I have nothing to do with these actions, as they relate to your
organization. I am just a recent subscriber. Perhaps something went wrong
during that process. Please investigate and correct. Thanks.
Greg
- -----Original Message-----
From: Prachi Mehta [mailto:pmehta2@uic.edu]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:55 PM
To: iso14000-digest@quality.org
Subject:
unsubscribe iso14000-digest
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:16:46 -0500
From: "Tatsch, C. E. (Gene)"
Subject: FW: How to join or leave email discussion lists HERE...
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:07:34 -0500
From: MATT KLEIN
Subject: International Audit Laws or Regs
Greetings, I think this is my first post to this list so allow me to make an introduction. My name is Matt and I work in RCRA Enforcement for the State of Indiana (IDEM). I am also the Pharmaceutical Sector Team Leader for the Multimedia Compliance Sect
ion--a new initiative at IDEM. Furthermore, I am an evening student at the Indiana University-Indianapolis School of Law. As you can see, I have plenty of free time on my hands.
As most of you are aware, there is no federal statute protecting environmental audits, common law protections notwithstanding. Some states have responded, including Indiana (IC 13-28-4-1), by passing statutes providing for either a privilege or immunity
(i.e., no civil and/or criminal penalties) or both for environmental audits. Some states have opted for policies rather than statutes. EPA has developed a Self-Disclosure Policy (December 22, 1995) allowing companies to self-disclose violations identifi
ed through an environmental audit or an EMS like ISO 14000 in turn for a reduced penalty.
Ok, so what's the point you ask? I am contemplating a paper for my International Law class that identifies and compares and contrasts environmental auditing laws and regulations in other countries (especially Europe) with the issues I raised above. So,
I ask you folks for any leads on where I can get this type of information (in English). Thanks!
Matt
Matthew T. Klein, MS, CHMM
Hazardous Waste Section
Office of Enforcement
Indiana Department of Environmental Management
100 North Senate Avenue
Indianapolis, Indiana 46206-6015
(317) 233-6335 phone
(317) 233-5968 fax
http://www.state.in.us/idem
mklein@dem.state.in.us
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:24:10 -0500
From: "Prokopis Christou / FPC Environmental Dept."
Subject: RE: International Audit Laws or Regs
Matt,
I don't have any information. But your project seems worthwhile and of
interest to many of us. I would be interested to see your results, perhaps
posted on the list, if you were willing to share them.
Prokopis Christou
pchristou@fpcusa.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MATT KLEIN [SMTP:MKLEIN@dem.state.in.us]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:08 AM
> To: iso14000@quality.org
> Subject: International Audit Laws or Regs
>
>
> Ok, so what's the point you ask? I am contemplating a paper for my
> International Law class that identifies and compares and contrasts
> environmental auditing laws and regulations in other countries (especially
> Europe) with the issues I raised above. So, I ask you folks for any leads
> on where I can get this type of information (in English). Thanks!
>
> Matt
>
> Matthew T. Klein, MS, CHMM
> Hazardous Waste Section
> Office of Enforcement
> http://www.state.in.us/idem
> mklein@dem.state.in.us
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:35:08 EST
From: Cpikon@aol.com
Subject: Re: International Audit Laws or Regs
Greetings. In response to Matt's inquiry about finding information on this
subject, I can recommend a new book on International Environmental Auditing
by David Nelson (dnelson@xmission.com). It discusses the practical and legal
aspects of auditing both in general and throughout a variety of countries. The
law firm of Baker & McKenzie did the legal sections (www.bakerinfo.com).
Government Institutes published the book (www.govinst.com). I hope this helps
you.
Charlene Ikonomou
cikonomou@eagle.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:31:48 -0500
From: "Lynda M. Wiseman"
Subject: International Audit Laws/Regs
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In response to Matt's request....there is an International Auditing =
Protocol Roundtable, sponsored by ENSR. You might wish to contact Hally =
Moriyama 978-635-9500, who chairs the Roundtable. And a European =
contact is Kathryn Mylrea at the law firm of Simmons& Simmons in London =
(Kathryn.Mylrea@simmons-simmons.com)
Good luck!
Lynda Wiseman
info@carpentergrp.com
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In response to Matt's =
request....there is an=20
International Auditing Protocol Roundtable, sponsored by ENSR. You =
might=20
wish to contact Hally Moriyama 978-635-9500, who chairs the =
Roundtable. =20
And a European contact is Kathryn Mylrea at the law firm of Simmons& =
Simmons=20
in London (Kathryn.Mylrea@simmon=
s-simmons.com)
Good luck!
Lynda Wiseman
info@carpentergrp.com
- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4AB1.CAE625E0--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:04:35 -0500
From: Susan Graff
Subject: international auditing
Hello Matt and ISOnewsgroup - I will introduce myself as this is my first
message to the newgroup. I own a small, associate-based consulting
company, Environmental Resource Services, Inc. We specialize in assisting
companies and government develop practical environmental management systems
and pollution prevention best management practices. I'm a registered
Environmental Auditor with United Kingdom's Environmental Auditor's
Registration Association (EARA), and a member of the US TAG TC207 to ISO
14000. I've learned a lot already just listening in on this group - thank
you.
In response to Matt's request for leads on European auditing legislation
and regulation, I offer the following suggestions:
The subcommittee (SC) to TC207 for ISO 14010-11-12 was lead by:
SC Secretariat
Netherlands: NNI
Dick Hortensius
Tel: +31 15 269 0115
Fax: +31 15 269 0190
This SC probably drew on the very documents you are seeking if they existed
prior to 1996 when these ISO standards were finalized. Should be a good
contact.
Also, since the Eco-Management and Audit Scheme (EMAS) is regulation among
EU member countries, this document and supporting references may be another
good starting point. According to EMAS, audits must address the issues
specified in Annex 1C and Annex 1D, the full audit cycle must be completed
at intervals no longer than three years, and account should be taken of
European Commisssion guidance on audit frequency.
Reference: EEC Council Regulation No. 1836/93 Community Eco-Management and
Audit Scheme. Official Journal of the European Communities No. L168 10th
July 1993.
Hope this is helpful to you.
Best regards,
Susan Graff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:35:25 -0500
From: Susan Graff
Subject: international auditing
Hello Matt and ISOnewsgroup - I will introduce myself as this is my first
message to the newgroup. I own a small, associate-based consulting
company, Environmental Resource Services, Inc. We specialize in assisting
companies and government develop practical environmental management systems
and pollution prevention best management practices. I'm a registered
Environmental Auditor with United Kingdom's Environmental Auditor's
Registration Association (EARA), and a member of the US TAG TC207 to ISO
14000. I've learned a lot already just listening in on this group - thank
you.
In response to Matt's request for leads on European auditing legislation
and regulation, I offer the following suggestions:
The subcommittee (SC) to TC207 for ISO 14010-11-12 was lead by:
SC Secretariat
Netherlands: NNI
Dick Hortensius
Tel: +31 15 269 0115
Fax: +31 15 269 0190
This SC probably drew on the very documents you are seeking if they existed
prior to 1996 when these ISO standards were finalized. Should be a good
contact.
Also, since the Eco-Management and Audit Scheme (EMAS) is regulation among
EU member countries, this document and supporting references may be another
good starting point. According to EMAS, audits must address the issues
specified in Annex 1C and Annex 1D, the full audit cycle must be completed
at intervals no longer than three years, and account should be taken of
European Commisssion guidance on audit frequency.
Reference: EEC Council Regulation No. 1836/93 Community Eco-Management and
Audit Scheme. Official Journal of the European Communities No. L168 10th
July 1993.
Hope this is helpful to you.
Best regards,
Susan Graff
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:58:34 +0800
From: fcm
Subject: ISO 14001 software
My company intend to use ISO 14001 software . Please provide me information
Thank You
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:24:02
From: Paul Sinclair Stewart
Subject: seeking agriculture or other production contacts
I am doing a survey of EMS's applied to primary production sectors:
agriculture, forestry, fishery, aquaculture, etc.
I would like to hear from government people, consultants, auditors, etc,
who have had experience assessing the value of ISO 14000 or other EMS's to
the primary production sectors, especially what are the economic and market
advantages of such actions from the point of view of the producer.
It so far seems that this sectorhas not gone very far to apply various
world EMS's to their situations. Is this because these businesses have
their own EMS embedded in the regulations governing their operations,
regionally and nationally? Or do the producers not have a market advantage
that clearly calls for EMS applications?
I will endeavour to share what info I can with anyone who responds.
Thanks to all on the list for your attention.
********************************************************************
Paul S. Stewart c/o ABIOGEN ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES
Marshfield Manse, RR #3 Charlottetown,
Prince Edward Island, CANADA C1A 7J7
Tel: (902) 566-4078 email: abiogen@isn.net
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate"
*********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 99 19:42:28 +0000
From:
Subject: ISO 14001 software
Dear fcm,
I don't believe there is any aspect of successful ISO 14001
implementation which requires or would benefit from any particular
software other than a word processor and a graphics package, preferably
non-microsoft.
The main downside of pre-designed ISO 14001 software is the 'one size
fits all' approach. The software will have been designed by someone who
does not even know your company exists, so that it will not be matched to
your company's circumstances, style, or particular needs. There will
also be a loss of flexibility if the software locks you into one
particular approach.
In addition there will be the costs of buying the software, the training
to use it, and the costs of any additional hardware necessary. My advice
is don't. Sorry.
Best wishes,
Richard Frey
Frey Environmental Associates Ltd.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:32:12 -0500
From: "rob"
Subject: RE: ISO 14001 software
Dear FCM,
I believe it's always necessary for an individual to be as well informed as
possible when making a decision. Therefore here are my comments, prompted by
Richard Freys earlier message.
First of all when looking for a piece of software, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND
the software you select IS Microsoft compatible. 90% of all software used in
the world is Microsoft based, and the likelihood is that the organzation you
work for uses Microsoft tools. Therefore if you purchase a piece of software
that is "non-Microsoft", you will effectively be isolating your EMS from the
other management systems in your organization. The result: duplication of
effort and data and creation of a roadblock to integrating the environment
into business considerations. The exact opposite of what is intended with
environmental management.
As for whether or not you should use software for the development of your
EMS, that decision has to be your own. GreenWare develops and markets
software and therefore I am always scanning the market for new competitors
and the approaches they take to development. I can also honestly say as hard
as I try, I am not aware of all of our competitors, or the possible
approaches to developing software for an EMS. If I'm not aware of all the
tools available how can someone who recommends not using software be fully
abreast of the products available and the advantages/disadvantages they may
offer? The key is to keep an open mind.
Software does merit investigation because some of it can offer the following
tools(to list just a few):
- - guidance and on-screen help
- - document management, controls, verification, record-keeping and
password-protection features
- - standardization of multiple sites
- - year-end file review procedures
Software may not be for everyone, but you have to look at how it will fit in
with the particulars of your organization. Obviously, the decision is
entirely yours. Do your homework: ask for recommendations from software
users, ask the software company for references and certainly obtain a
demonstration version of the software before purchasing. Asking about the
return policy is also extremely important as is the knowledge base and
background of the company developing the product.
Best regards and good luck,
Robert
Robert Ganzhorn
Director of Marketing and Sales
GreenWare Environmental Systems Inc (http://www.greenware.com)
Specialists in environmental management information systems
145 King Street East, Suite 200, Toronto, Ontario Canada M5C 2Y8
tel: (416)363-5450; fax: (416)367-2653; email: rob@greenware.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-iso14000@quality.org [mailto:owner-iso14000@quality.org]On
> Behalf Of richard@frey.demon.co.uk
> Sent: February 5, 1999 2:42 PM
> To: fcm; ISO 14001 discussion group
> Subject: ISO 14001 software
>
>
> Dear fcm,
>
> I don't believe there is any aspect of successful ISO 14001
> implementation which requires or would benefit from any particular
> software other than a word processor and a graphics package, preferably
> non-microsoft.
>
> The main downside of pre-designed ISO 14001 software is the 'one size
> fits all' approach. The software will have been designed by someone who
> does not even know your company exists, so that it will not be matched to
> your company's circumstances, style, or particular needs. There will
> also be a loss of flexibility if the software locks you into one
> particular approach.
>
> In addition there will be the costs of buying the software, the training
> to use it, and the costs of any additional hardware necessary. My advice
> is don't. Sorry.
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Richard Frey
> Frey Environmental Associates Ltd.
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:27:05 -0500
From: HY BRAVERMAN
Subject: Re: ISO 14001 software
You are right and wrong:
One size does not fit all, but it's more that a word processor and some
graphics. It's enterprise information sharing. Today, we are data rich
and knowledge poor. Environmental Information and corporate goals are
not even close. How are business decision going to be made? Will
engineering design systems and processes that conform to a viable EMS
and not talk to manufacturing? Will purchasing know what to order?
If an enterprise is going to be a tapastry, it's fabric must be woven
with strong threads of Information not weak data shreads. Environmental
data has a short shelf life, it's context get lost if it goes stale. It
needs to updated and linked continually. Raw data is what it is, untill
it turned into information it's worthless.
Accurate information is the life force for business, when it goes stale,
the company or organization begings to be old and less competitive.
Today, when companies derive 80% of their business from 20% of the
customers, they better have accurate intelligence about their
manufacturing, their customers and their processes that assure continued
business.
That's it for now.........don't forget, knowledge is more important than
raw data. The information ecology of a business is important for the
survival of a concern. Those that are afraid of computers and the
systems they represent, resist them.
Hy Braverman
richard@frey.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> Dear fcm,
>
> I don't believe there is any aspect of successful ISO 14001
> implementation which requires or would benefit from any particular
> software other than a word processor and a graphics package, preferably
> non-microsoft.
>
> The main downside of pre-designed ISO 14001 software is the 'one size
> fits all' approach. The software will have been designed by someone who
> does not even know your company exists, so that it will not be matched to
> your company's circumstances, style, or particular needs. There will
> also be a loss of flexibility if the software locks you into one
> particular approach.
>
> In addition there will be the costs of buying the software, the training
> to use it, and the costs of any additional hardware necessary. My advice
> is don't. Sorry.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Richard Frey
> Frey Environmental Associates Ltd.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:04:19 EST
From: Apricot458@aol.com
Subject: Re: ISO 14001 software
Well said! - 'Cera
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:07:00 EST
From: Apricot458@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: ISO 14001 software
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Here's another one I intended to post, but replied only to author....ooops.
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From: Apricot458@aol.com
Return-path:
To: rob@greenware.com
Subject: Re: ISO 14001 software
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:00:58 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I agree with Robert that I would rather not re-invent the wheel...if there is
a basic package available that I can tailor to my needs, all the better.
Richard was right, though, that too many software packages do not meet the
majority of needs for industry specific companies, such as lumber mills (as in
the case of SARA), and often promise much more than they can deliver. It is
best to know the requirements of a standard so well that one does not need a
pre-packaged software assistance.
Regards, 'Cera
- --part0_918328020_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:06:01 EST
From: Apricot458@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: ISO 14001 software
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --part0_918327962_boundary
Content-ID: <0_918327962@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Ooops...still getting the hang of the list...
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From: Apricot458@aol.com
Return-path:
To: richard@frey.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: ISO 14001 software
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:57:11 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
I see Richard's point, but do not understand why he said "preferably non-
microsoft..." Can he elucidate?
Regards, 'Cera
- --part0_918327962_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 08:52:14 -0500
From: HY BRAVERMAN
Subject: Re: Fwd: ISO 14001 software
You are all right, the answer is somewhere in your organization:
I look at the issue from the perspective that if an organization is in
business to make widgets, they need to know the who, what where and when
to buy the raw materials, they need to know how they are produced and
the cost. A sales organization goes out and sells it.
In the grand scheme of things, does not the organization have to have an
information architecture? Don't they need to know the feeds and speeds
of their manufacturing processes. With all that goes on inside an
organization the adopted model is of a fiefdom. Each one with it's own
management, rules and tariffs between departments, raising the cost of
doing business. This feudal structure is non competitive, and a long
term design for failure.
Today valuable information rots inside some computer because no one
wants or does not know how to use it. Missed customers requirements,
shoddy services and ineffective management going to slow to meet the
changing market needs.
The new speed of business requires action and not analysis paralysis.
They need to be fast enough to change a fan belt while the enginbe is
running.
The way to get and use information and transform it to useful knowledge
is inside your organization, the will and insight is the responsibility
of management to commit to action. Once you have that, you will be able
to lift the roof off the organization and look down to see how
everything works and what it will take to not produce pollution. Then
the information sources and destinations can contain the knowledge to be
competitive and clean at the same time they are being profitable.
Don't forget to leave the egos outside, business is business not a
populatity contest. Management ego and stubborness are great, but they
are also cause for many business failures.
Hy Braverman
>Apricot458@aol.com wrote:
> Subject: Re: ISO 14001 software
> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:00:58 EST
> From: Apricot458@aol.com
> To: rob@greenware.com
>
> I agree with Robert that I would rather not re-invent the wheel...if there is
> a basic package available that I can tailor to my needs, all the better.
> Richard was right, though, that too many software packages do not meet the
> majority of needs for industry specific companies, such as lumber mills (as in
> the case of SARA), and often promise much more than they can deliver. It is
> best to know the requirements of a standard so well that one does not need a
> pre-packaged software assistance.
>
> Regards, 'Cera
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 99 16:47:07 +0000
From:
Subject: Software for ISO 14001 implementation
Mr Braverman's encomium would seem to support the proposition that
companies should make good use of information. This is a difficult
proposition to argue against, in principle at least, and it's lucky for
me that I was not attempting to do so.
What I _was_ arguing against was the use of specialised software for
managing an ISO 14001 implementation. In addition to word processors and
graphics, I will grudgingly concede spreadsheets and e-mailers can be
useful, but nothing much beyond that.
I will admit to being slightly bitter and twisted in this regard, having
twice seen major companies make expensive mistakes with grossly over-sold
and inappropriate software, and then been lumbered with making the damn
things fit company systems.
As it happens, neither package was for ISO 14001 implementation, one
being for chemical health and safety management, the other for data
handling and analysis. However, it was the striking similarities between
their marketing, adaptation and eventual abandonment rather than the
differences in technical objective which I found instructive when the
marketing of ISO 14001 software began.
Essentially, my belief is that there is little or nothing in an effective
ISO 14001 implementation project which cannot be done better and more
cheaply on paper or with generic software.
Best wishes,
Richard Frey
>Subject: Re: Fwd: ISO 14001 software
>Sent: 2/2/1919 1:43 PM
>Received: 7/2/1999 3:29 PM
>From: HY BRAVERMAN, braveman@ziplink.net
>To: Apricot458@aol.com
>CC: iso14000@quality.org
>
>You are all right, the answer is somewhere in your organization:
>
>I look at the issue from the perspective that if an organization is in
>business to make widgets, they need to know the who, what where and when
>to buy the raw materials, they need to know how they are produced and
>the cost. A sales organization goes out and sells it.
>
>In the grand scheme of things, does not the organization have to have an
>information architecture? Don't they need to know the feeds and speeds
>of their manufacturing processes. With all that goes on inside an
>organization the adopted model is of a fiefdom. Each one with it's own
>management, rules and tariffs between departments, raising the cost of
>doing business. This feudal structure is non competitive, and a long
>term design for failure.
>
>Today valuable information rots inside some computer because no one
>wants or does not know how to use it. Missed customers requirements,
>shoddy services and ineffective management going to slow to meet the
>changing market needs.
>
>The new speed of business requires action and not analysis paralysis.
>They need to be fast enough to change a fan belt while the enginbe is
>running.
>
>The way to get and use information and transform it to useful knowledge
>is inside your organization, the will and insight is the responsibility
>of management to commit to action. Once you have that, you will be able
>to lift the roof off the organization and look down to see how
>everything works and what it will take to not produce pollution. Then
>the information sources and destinations can contain the knowledge to be
>competitive and clean at the same time they are being profitable.
>
>Don't forget to leave the egos outside, business is business not a
>populatity contest. Management ego and stubborness are great, but they
>are also cause for many business failures.
>
>Hy Braverman
>
>>Apricot458@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Subject: Re: ISO 14001 software
>> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:00:58 EST
>> From: Apricot458@aol.com
>> To: rob@greenware.com
>>
>> I agree with Robert that I would rather not re-invent the wheel...if there
is
>> a basic package available that I can tailor to my needs, all the better.
>> Richard was right, though, that too many software packages do not meet the
>> majority of needs for industry specific companies, such as lumber mills (as
>in
>> the case of SARA), and often promise much more than they can deliver. It is
>> best to know the requirements of a standard so well that one does not need a
>> pre-packaged software assistance.
>>
>> Regards, 'Cera
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:31:47 -0500
From: HY BRAVERMAN
Subject: Re: Software for ISO 14001 implementation
Mr. Frey is absolutely right.
This is off the track a bit, but any implementation of any solution
means comining into contact with a sales person or consultant. Too many
times, sales people and consultants charm, bully and lie to management
folks just to win an order. Management is too embarrassed to ask the
real questions. There is a reason they have the reputation they have.
The really good sales people are invisible, and do great work helping
the customer with his business.
However, these slick sales folks are sly, they do not take the time to
understand their customers business, they just pounced upon them with
stratospheric promises and leave them with Death Valley dust bowl
realities. Most sales people as a rule don't know how to sell, they take
orders, and want to "SUPER SIZE" the fries. If they did know and
understand what the customers business was, more would have solutions
that worked, on budget and on time.
Watch out for the slick sales people who say whatever it takes to make a
sale, they will flatter, cajole, sway and intimidate the customer int
buying a "PIG IN A POKE", while some are as sly as foxes, making flashy
presentations to unsuspecting management, ready to jump on killer
closing techniques.
Beware of the wolf-like sales people dressed in sheeps clothing.
hy braverman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:24:54 MYT
From: "Nik Zafri Abdul Majid"
Subject: iso 14000 software
Hello
I would like to briefly comment on this matter. I feel that a lot of
people have got the wrong impression of the usage of software in the
implementation of the ISO-14000. I still remember that there was once a
live debate that I have participated on the usage of software in the
implementation of the evergreen ISO-9000.
Many people thought that the software only serves as a 'burden'
(probably to cost), I would like to respectfully refute the fact. I do
agree to what Mr. Frey concluded including responses that other members
have provided. What I am trying to stress here are :-
a) Making use of available resources - today, many entrepreneurs,
manufacturers, industrialist and business owners...I am too sure to say
that computers have already played an important of their business. The
real issues here are :-
a 1) is there an internal programmer hired in their business? If there
aren't any, train them or hire part time programmers from
institution....I know, there are very competent and very cheap. If there
is, then the softwares, basically the available databases, spreadsheet,
wordprocessing, graphics, project management etc. etc. can be
'customised' to produce software such as :-
- - Internal Audit Software, Document Control Software,Training Needs
Analysis Software (using the basic 'Expected Ability Minus Current
Ability = 'Needs of Training'), Statistical Process Control, MRP and
many more. Most of these softwares are in LAN/WAN.
You'll be surprised that many companies that I've consulted have
successfully used these 'internally custom made software' in their
business and even obtained the ISO-14000 certification.
b) There are some important hardwares that you might want to purchase
outside...(only when required....not 'copying' other people's style) to
interface with the servers such as mechanism that scans 'chemical
leakage' and sends alarm/alert signal to the server and after a while
dials the number of ERT/DRT team wherever they are (if they aren't
available) and even I've seen during a 'mock-up' drill, where it even
automatically calls the 911.
c) Cost issues????????? I know that this issue are beyond control
sometime...well as I have mentioned earlier....depending on requirement
and the complexity/nature of industry....not spending unneccessarily for
'style and so called corporate image' stake. Not overlooking of course
'full management with executive responsibility' to provide necessary
resources.....Always remember the principal of 'COST VS RISK'
prioritisation. But if these activities can be done manually (human
effort), well....carry on....
d) Don't get me wrong, what I have mentioned above are merely a tool to
expedite decision, it may not be entirely accurate of perfect and will
NEVER change the art of 'formal decision' making.
The most important thing to remember is that proper planning prior to
setting up the business itself. Do some risk management, SWOT, proper
finance management, Brainstorming analysis even amidst the business
operation....
e) To those external softwares developers....Please....do not reserve
too much information to the business owners....it is better to explain
in detailed and with all due respect...please do not 'overcharge'....be
responsible and accountable. I am very sure, your business will be
'long term' rather that too much worrying that the customers may ask
quotations from others using your specification as a benchmark of
comparison.
Thank you for your attention.....(I am no software expert...)
Nik Zafri bin Abdul Majid
irca,eara,miqa,miqm,mmim,fellow of PendidikNet Malaysia
No. 3, Jalan Intan 2/8
Taman Intan
Kluang 86000
Johor
Malaysia
www.nikzafri.tsx.org
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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:39:57 MYT
From: "Nik Zafri Abdul Majid"
Subject: RE: ISO 14031
Try www.iso14000.net (go to Chat, then EMS Sounding Board) get hold of
Mr. Joe Cascio...he might be able to give you the answer
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "Connie G. Ritzert"
Reply-To: "critzert@fyi.net"
To: "'Bursley, Juanita M'" <>,
"ISO14000@quality.org"
Subject: RE: ISO 14031
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:07:37 -0500
Juanita: ISO 14031 is now in the final balloting process before being
released as an international standard this summer. ( It is officially
now
FDIS 14031). As such, it is only available to ISO TC207 members,
including
members of the U.S. TAG, for purposes of responding to this final
ballot.
The standard has changed substantively since the version in 1997 to
which
you refer. There is also a companion Technical Report in preparation (
ISO
TR 14032) which provides "real life" examples of environmental
performance
evaluation. This document is intended to be published on the same
schedule
as 14031. I am a U.S Expert on this Subcommittee and am giving a
workshop
on the subject at the ESI-99 meeting in Las Vegas in March, so if you
need
additional information, please feel free to contact me.
Connie Ritzert critzert@fyi.net
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bursley, Juanita M [SMTP:Juanita.Bursley@ucar.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:56 PM
To: ISO14000@quality.org
Subject:
To the ISO group:
Does anyone have a copy of the drafted ISO 14031 model regarding
environmental performance evaluation that was released in 1997? While
I'd like to now where to obtain a full copy for future reference, I
have
an immediate need for a copy of the Annex to ISO 14031 that provides
numerous examples of measures and indicators. My e:mail address and
fax
number are given below if anyone can provide this information to me.
Thanks in advance!
Juanita Bursley
Juanita.Bursley@UCAR.com
FAX: 216-676-2697 (U.S.)
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------------------------------
End of iso14000-digest V2 #45
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