ISO 9000-3 Digest Monday, 20 January 1997 Volume 01 : Number 030
In this issue:
How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe at QUALITY.ORG
Request for help
Request for help -Reply
ISO/IEC 12207
Re: ISO/IEC 12207
ISO 12207 critique
Re: ISO/IEC 12207
Re: ISO/IEC 12207 -Reply
New Web URL for Online Quality Forum (fwd)
FWD> SQA Job Opportunity in Boston
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (Moderator)"
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:59:57 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe at QUALITY.ORG
We use a program called MAJORDOMO to manage the subscription and
unsubscription processes here, so your requests to join or leave a list
MUST follow the command syntax structure that MAJORDOMO understands, and
MUST be addressed ONLY to the program's email address. Please do NOT send
your requests to any of the list posting addresses, as that will only
annoy the rest of the subscribers.
1. Address a message ONLY to our automated list manager at:
majordomo@quality.org
2. In the BODY of your message, put only these TWO words (the "commandd
syntax structure") to SUBSCRIBE:
subscribe LISTNAME
OR,
Put these two words to UNSUBSCRIBE:
unsubscribe LISTNAME
In both cases, LISTNAME should be replaced with the exact name of the
list you want to join or leave, eg. qfd-l, config-mgmt, ASQC-DCD, etc.
The command syntax is not case-sensitive, so upper- or lower-case will
both work. The "list of lists" supported at QUALITY.ORG can be found at:
http://www.quality.org/qc/lists/lists_at_quality.org.txt
Note that you can both subscribe to or unsubscribe from more than one list
in a single message. Just make sure that each command syntax structure is
on a separate line, eg.
subscribe config-mgmt
unsubscribe qfd-l
3. When SUBSCRIBING *only*, our system will send you an authentication
code and instructions you will need to complete within 24 hours to finish
processing the subscription. Those should also be returned ONLY to:
majordomo@quality.org
Thank you for your interest!
Bill
==============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner Pager: +1 800 604 6149
QUALITY.ORG Fax: +1 703 716 0479
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUALITY RESOURCES ONLINE at: http://www.quality.org/qc
==============================================================================
------------------------------
From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:38:41 GMT
Subject: Request for help
Dear everyone
I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this new
standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be most
grateful.
Sandra Hunter
------------------------------
From: David Walker
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:40:48 -0500
Subject: Request for help -Reply
I attended the International Conference on Software Quality in
Ottawa this year, one full day was spent on ISO 12207. Major
differences:
1- 12207 is a standard, 9000-3 is a guide.
2- 9001 has related certification bodies, 12207 does not.
3- 12207 is process based, 9000-3 is requirements based.
I have a copy of the standard as well as a trial copy of the new
9000-3 soon to be released. You may ask me anything about
these.
Dave Walker
Trilogy Consulting Corporation
Kalamazoo, Michigan USA
>>> Sandra Hunter 01/14 10:38 am >>>
From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
Dear everyone
I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software
and its relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little
written on this new standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If
anyone can help I would be most grateful.
Sandra Hunter
------------------------------
From: Doug Thiele
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:52:02 +1100
Subject: ISO/IEC 12207
At 15:38 14/01/97 GMT, you wrote:
>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>
>I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
>relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this new
>standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be most
>grateful.
>>From: David Walker
>>I attended the International Conference on Software Quality in
>>Ottawa this year, one full day was spent on ISO 12207. Major
>>differences:
>>1- 12207 is a standard, 9000-3 is a guide.
>>2- 9001 has related certification bodies, 12207 does not.
>>3- 12207 is process based, 9000-3 is requirements based.
A Guide for ISO/IEC 12207 is being produced by ISO/IEC JTC1/SC7/WG7 and I am
Project Editor. An update is being prepared at present and will be balloted
this year. If all goes well, this will be the final ballot.
There has been liaison between SC7 and the ISO TC176 sub-committee which
manages ISO 9000-3. My understanding is that the next version of ISO 9000-3
will reference ISO/IEC 12207.
At various times WG7 has examined mappings between 9001 and 12207. This is
not an easy task, is made more difficult because of the different approaches
of the standards, would have to be done down to the sentence level and is
probably to be avoided unless you really need (not want) to.
12207 was not intended to be a certification standard and for example it
caters for tailoring which does not feature in 9001. I view 9001 as being
structured in an "organizational" way. 12207 does not try to impose
organizational structure, rather it provides a kit of processes which the
user sticks together in a way that suits their purpose. 12207 may be used in
a contractual way which differs from the way 9001 is used.
As time goes on I expect that there will be closer linkage between standards
like 9000-3 and 12207. The lastest new project for WG7 is a System Life
Cycle Processes standard which will sit like a roof across the top of 12207
(and eventually other standards).
regards
- --
Doug Thiele
Mincom Pty Ltd, Brisbane, Australia tel +61 7 3303-3139
doug@mincom.com fax +61 7 3303-3232
------------------------------
From: "John D Tongren"
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:26:01 -0500
Subject: Re: ISO/IEC 12207
Hi Doug,
What will be the impact of ISO12207 on ISO10011 (if any)? I'm on TG10011
and we have a meeting schedule for May to work on revision. Would
appreciate any info or links you could share.
I've been interested in ISO9000-3 in terms of its applicability for IS
Auditors to use as a generally accepted standard. Do you think ISO12207
could also be useful for this purpose?
Thanks for your help,
John
John D Tongren
Tongren & Associates
jtongren@gte.net
http://home1.gte.net/jtongren/index.htm
http://www.coactiveconnection.com
616-780-4440
Advocate CoActive Control & Audit
- ----------
> From: Doug Thiele
> To: iso9000-3@quality.org
> Subject: ISO/IEC 12207
> Date: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 4:52 PM
>
> From: Doug Thiele
> At 15:38 14/01/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
> >
> >I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
> >relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this
new
> >standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be
most
> >grateful.
>
> >>From: David Walker
> >>I attended the International Conference on Software Quality in
> >>Ottawa this year, one full day was spent on ISO 12207. Major
> >>differences:
> >>1- 12207 is a standard, 9000-3 is a guide.
> >>2- 9001 has related certification bodies, 12207 does not.
> >>3- 12207 is process based, 9000-3 is requirements based.
>
> A Guide for ISO/IEC 12207 is being produced by ISO/IEC JTC1/SC7/WG7 and I
am
> Project Editor. An update is being prepared at present and will be
balloted
> this year. If all goes well, this will be the final ballot.
>
> There has been liaison between SC7 and the ISO TC176 sub-committee which
> manages ISO 9000-3. My understanding is that the next version of ISO
9000-3
> will reference ISO/IEC 12207.
>
> At various times WG7 has examined mappings between 9001 and 12207. This
is
> not an easy task, is made more difficult because of the different
approaches
> of the standards, would have to be done down to the sentence level and is
> probably to be avoided unless you really need (not want) to.
>
> 12207 was not intended to be a certification standard and for example it
> caters for tailoring which does not feature in 9001. I view 9001 as being
> structured in an "organizational" way. 12207 does not try to impose
> organizational structure, rather it provides a kit of processes which the
> user sticks together in a way that suits their purpose. 12207 may be used
in
> a contractual way which differs from the way 9001 is used.
>
> As time goes on I expect that there will be closer linkage between
standards
> like 9000-3 and 12207. The lastest new project for WG7 is a System Life
> Cycle Processes standard which will sit like a roof across the top of
12207
> (and eventually other standards).
>
> regards
> --
> Doug Thiele
> Mincom Pty Ltd, Brisbane, Australia tel +61 7 3303-3139
> doug@mincom.com fax +61 7 3303-3232
------------------------------
From: Doug Thiele
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:59:28 +1100
Subject: ISO 12207 critique
>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>
>I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
>relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this new
>standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be most
>grateful.
An article titled "ISO 12207 Software life cycle processes - fit for
purpose?" appears in the Software Quality Journal Volume 5 Number 4 December
1996 ISSN 0963-9314 published by Chapman Hall.
This article examines 12207 and refers to 9001, 9000-3 and SPICE.
Note that in section 1.3 (2) the breakdown of a process is in error.
Processes in 12207 break down first into activities then into tasks.
regards
- --
Doug Thiele
Mincom Pty Ltd, Brisbane, Australia tel +61 7 3303-3139
doug@mincom.com fax +61 7 3303-3232
------------------------------
From: Doug Thiele
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:31:47 +1100
Subject: Re: ISO/IEC 12207
At 08:26 15/01/97 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "John D Tongren"
>What will be the impact of ISO12207 on ISO10011 (if any)? I'm on TG10011
>and we have a meeting schedule for May to work on revision. Would
>appreciate any info or links you could share.
I don't believe that 12207 would impact 10011, in fact it should fit easily
as a tool that could be used from 12207.
>I've been interested in ISO9000-3 in terms of its applicability for IS
>Auditors to use as a generally accepted standard. Do you think ISO12207
>could also be useful for this purpose?
9000-3 is a guide not a standard although TickIT in effect treats it like a
standard. Apart from TickIT other guidance may be used. In Australia we have
a locally developed guidance document AS 3905.8.
When auditing against 9001, guidance which specifically relates to the
standard is probably more useful. In time, revisions to the various
standards based on experience will result in a more cohesive package.
12207 may be useful when building a 9001 compliant system. At the end of the
day the ceritification standard is 9001 not 12207.
- --
Doug Thiele
Mincom Pty Ltd, Brisbane, Australia tel +61 7 3303-3139
doug@mincom.com fax +61 7 3303-3232
------------------------------
From: David Walker
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:54:01 -0500
Subject: Re: ISO/IEC 12207 -Reply
John,
I don't believe that 12207 will have any impact on 10011. ISO
12207 is a software standard where 10011 provides sufficient
framwork for auditing in general. I think 12207 is a valuable
replacement for 9000-3 in software auditing since it is process
based.
Dave Walker
Trilogy Consulting Corporation
Kalamazoo, Michigan USA
dwwalker@trilogy-cnslt.com
>>> John D Tongren 01/15 8:26 am >>>
From: "John D Tongren"
Hi Doug,
What will be the impact of ISO12207 on ISO10011 (if any)? I'm on
TG10011 and we have a meeting schedule for May to work on
revision. Would appreciate any info or links you could share.
I've been interested in ISO9000-3 in terms of its applicability for IS
Auditors to use as a generally accepted standard. Do you think
ISO12207 could also be useful for this purpose?
Thanks for your help,
John
John D Tongren
Tongren & Associates jtongren@gte.net
http://home1.gte.net/jtongren/index.htm
http://www.coactiveconnection.com
616-780-4440
Advocate CoActive Control & Audit
- ----------
> From: Doug Thiele
> To: iso9000-3@quality.org
> Subject: ISO/IEC 12207
> Date: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 4:52 PM
> > From: Doug Thiele
> At 15:38 14/01/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
> >
> >I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to
software and its
> >relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written
on this new
> >standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I
would be most
> >grateful.
> > >>From: David Walker
> >>I attended the International Conference on Software Quality in
> >>Ottawa this year, one full day was spent on ISO 12207. Major
> >>differences:
> >>1- 12207 is a standard, 9000-3 is a guide.
> >>2- 9001 has related certification bodies, 12207 does not.
> >>3- 12207 is process based, 9000-3 is requirements based.
> > A Guide for ISO/IEC 12207 is being produced by ISO/IEC
JTC1/SC7/WG7 and I am
> Project Editor. An update is being prepared at present and will
be balloted
> this year. If all goes well, this will be the final ballot.
> > There has been liaison between SC7 and the ISO TC176
sub-committee which
> manages ISO 9000-3. My understanding is that the next version
of ISO
9000-3
> will reference ISO/IEC 12207.
> > At various times WG7 has examined mappings between 9001
and 12207. This is
> not an easy task, is made more difficult because of the different
approaches
> of the standards, would have to be done down to the sentence
level and is
> probably to be avoided unless you really need (not want) to.
> > 12207 was not intended to be a certification standard and for
example it
> caters for tailoring which does not feature in 9001. I view 9001
as being
> structured in an "organizational" way. 12207 does not try to
impose
> organizational structure, rather it provides a kit of processes
which the
> user sticks together in a way that suits their purpose. 12207 may
be used in
> a contractual way which differs from the way 9001 is used.
> > As time goes on I expect that there will be closer linkage
between standards
> like 9000-3 and 12207. The lastest new project for WG7 is a
System Life
> Cycle Processes standard which will sit like a roof across the top
of
12207
> (and eventually other standards).
> > regards
> --
> Doug Thiele
> Mincom Pty Ltd, Brisbane, Australia tel +61 7 3303-3139
> doug@mincom.com fax +61 7 3303-3232
------------------------------
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (Moderator)"
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:46:29 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: New Web URL for Online Quality Forum (fwd)
NOTE: This message is being mass-distributed to all lists supported at
QUALITY.ORG. If you belong to more than one list, you will get more than
one copy. There's no simple way to prevent it, so instead of beating me up
about it, just exercise your "delete" key to get rid of the "extras".
Thanks.
Bill
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 22:27:01 CDT
From: Administrator@qof.com
Subject: New Web Address
Bill,
We have had a change in our web address. I would greatly appreciate it if you
would send the following messages on the appropriate discussion lists. Thanks.
John
- -------
Web Address for Quality Online Forum Has Changed
The URL for the Quality Online Forum website has just changed. The new
address is
http://www.qof.com/
While the old site is supposed to be active for the next sixty days, some
people have had trouble accessing it. We apologize for any incovenience.
John Shoemaker
President, Quality Online Forum
------------------------------
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (Moderator)"
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:54:47 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: FWD> SQA Job Opportunity in Boston
NOTE: Respond *only* as directed in the posting below, NOT to me.
Thanks.
Bill
- -------
Posting Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997
SQA Engineer (Boston MA)
The company, Exchange Applications, is a really interesting (and
profitable) start-up located in Boston. Their product is a database
extraction tool used for targeting marketing campaigns (mailings, etc.) at
the proper potential customers; the theory is that "junk-mail" ceases to
be "junk-mail" when sent to the right people. The Gardner Group named
this product #1 of the type, citing the fact that it can run on many
platforms over many different databases as well as being Ole compliant.
The salary range is roughly $45,000 to $55,000. Candidate should have a
few years experience (4 or 5) but qualified candidates with fewer years
will be considered. Here are the basic requirements:
* Experience: Looking for an experienced Windows and
WindowsNT person. Should have some SQL
experience, too. Any UNIX, Oracle or MSSQL
would be a plus.
* Position Responsibilities: Will work in a QA group of 2,
assuring that the SQL statements
are doing what they should be doing.
Exchange Applications is a company that develops a database tool that
allows the user to extract complex marketing information from databases.
They build marketing campaign software (ie. direct mail database
management software), that has a GUI user front-end; it uses SQL
statements to access the data.
Working environment is casual and friendly.
Interested parties should contact:
Patrick McDonough
Recruiter, Winter, Wyman & Company
(617) 890-7000 x3095
Email: pmcdonough@winterwyman.com
- -----------
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
- Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
- List Moderator, "TQM in Manufacturing and Service Industries"
- Chairman, Electronic Media
ASQC Section 0511 (Northern VA) Section Email: E-media@quality.org
- Senior Administrator, Internet Systems, Fed. Emergency Mgmt. Agency (FEMA)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUALITY RESOURCES ONLINE at: http://www.quality.org/qc
=============================================================================
------------------------------
End of ISO 9000-3 Digest V1 #30
*******************************