ISO 9000-3 Digest Friday, 24 January 1997 Volume 01 : Number 031
In this issue:
Re: Request for help
Re:ISO this vs that
Re: ISO this vs that
FW: ISO this vs that
Re: FW: ISO this vs that
Re: Request for help
Re: Unsubscribe
Re: CMMs
Re: Request for help
RE: Request for help
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:30:46 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Request for help
Dear Sandy,
I'm curious about what your company does... Please tell me about your
company and what it does and where it is going?
My company Fusion Systems Japan, Inc is a computer consulting company
based out of Japan. We have about 70 employees where 90% of then are
engineers. We have three divisions which are seperated into the
categories of the type of work htat we do. The divisions are Client
Services, Commercial Systems, and Financial Services:
Client Services designs and sets up computer networks. Which can be
starting from the raised floors and wiring down to which the actual
installation of the designed archetecture for the client company.
Financial Services creates custom software based on the customers
requirements. Usually companies in the financial sector have a good idea
of what type of software and how the software should be designed.
Commercial Systems creates custom software for companies other than
financial institutions. But basically is very similar to Financial
Services.
If you don't know the answers to my questions please forward this letter
to the head of your marketing and sales departments.
Thanx in Advance,
Dave Grummer
Dave Grummer
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
At 03:38 PM 1/14/97 GMT, you wrote:
>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>Dear everyone
>
>I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
>relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this new
>standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be most
>grateful.
>
>Sandra Hunter
>
>
>
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
------------------------------
From:
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:ISO this vs that
Watch for the 750 lb gorilla to step into the process (CMU-SEI) with
SfwEng-CMM V2.0. If CMM fills the gaps with ISO (as Mark Paulk suggested
in V1.1), then anything speccified in there will be both process and
standard -- and the gorilla grows in stature -- 900 lbs.
Note that US DOD has already stated that certifications and registrations
in international standards are not applicable to DOD contractors even
though the international standard may be used on contracts. US PTO
already has standardized (explicitly without registrations), so there is
also a precedent for Commerce Dept (and other civilan agencies).
Note that the EIA-IEEE JSTD-016 (nee IEEE-P1498, nee MIL-STD-498) is now
accepted by DOD and other federales. There is a promised amelioration
with ISO/IEC-12207
(Interesting times what?)
-- Mike Berens CSQE
Lockheed Martin DEIS
------------------------------
From: William King
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:03:11 -0600
Subject: Re: ISO this vs that
Michael_S_Berens@ccmail.orl.mmc.com wrote:
>
> From:
> Watch for the 750 lb gorilla to step into the process (CMU-SEI)
Well, all this is very confusing for a small (garage-seed-state)
s/w development company (we do software development, usually
fixed price contracts, in the Unix area for large clients)
attempting to satisfy QA requirements of Fortune100 and large
international clients ...
What is the current concensus view wrt the value of ISO900*,
TickIT, etc for fast-moving, leading-edge, rapid-response
(pick your metaphor) small (less than 10 developers)
QA-conscientious software development companies. From the outside,
spending the time and resources to document what seems to be
an already working process looks expensive and redundant.
- -W
------------------------------
From: Don Wagner
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:15:42 -0600
Subject: FW: ISO this vs that
W.K. - I am far more concerned with a Software Engineering Company's
Capability Maturity Model (CMM) status than with its ISO 9000 status,
but, here is the basic reason why I feel a documented process is
important.
You are a small company that does top-notch work. That's good; however,
you are in league with thousands of other small companies - some good,
some bad, vying for work. So, what makes you different from them? You
have a good track record? Great! But a company can have a good track
record and still not deliver the goods. Why? Because a key player (or
players) may quit, taking everything in his head with him.
That is why CMM is so important. Software Engineering firms are
inherently unstable as far as people coming and going. So - they need a
set of stable processes that allow a new person to assimilate the
process as rapidly as possible.
One of the key strategies being adapted by the big companies (from the
Japanese) is to consolidate their suppliers down to a small number, and
give them extremely high expectations. CMM is one of the criteria for
determining the capability of a supplier to meet those high
expectations. Also think in terms of growth - what if your client said
they will stay with you, if you can up your company to 100 programmers
in 6 months. Without the processes in place, you wouldn't be able to
pull it off!
Don E. Wagner
donw@4cs.com
(309) 755-0199 Ext 140
(309) 755-3099 FAX
http://www.4cs.com
A small advance every day
will eventually total
much less than a big advance every
day.
>----------
>From: William King[SMTP:wpk@fc.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 1997 10:03 AM
>To: iso9000-3@quality.org
>Subject: Re: ISO this vs that
>
>From: William King
>Michael_S_Berens@ccmail.orl.mmc.com wrote:
>>
>> From:
>> Watch for the 750 lb gorilla to step into the process (CMU-SEI)
>
>Well, all this is very confusing for a small (garage-seed-state)
>s/w development company (we do software development, usually
>fixed price contracts, in the Unix area for large clients)
>attempting to satisfy QA requirements of Fortune100 and large
>international clients ...
>
>What is the current concensus view wrt the value of ISO900*,
>TickIT, etc for fast-moving, leading-edge, rapid-response
>(pick your metaphor) small (less than 10 developers)
>QA-conscientious software development companies. From the outside,
>spending the time and resources to document what seems to be
>an already working process looks expensive and redundant.
>
>-W
>
------------------------------
From: Andrew Worsley
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:40:16 +1100
Subject: Re: FW: ISO this vs that
I would suggest looking at the book:
"A Discipline for Software Engineering"
by Watt S. Humphrey, Publisher: Adison Wesley
ISBN: 0-201-54610-8
which descibes in great detail a Software Engineering Process for the
single programmer (Watt's calls it the PSP) which is still very flexible.
I try to use it personally in my work and have found it a big plus in
quality and predictability, although *perhaps* slowing me down (but I spend
far less time debugging).
Watt's was one of the founding people behing CMM and his own motivation
for designing PSP was to prove you could define a software process that
suits a single programmer, that's light in paper work and yet very
effective. His aim was to do everything in the CMM that pertains to the
individual programmer (no group reviews et cetera) at level 5.
In my opinion he succeeded very well. It's an excellent text book on
Software engineering in it's own right and the first Quantative one I've
ever seen. He actually does himself what he preaches and collects data to
see if it works for others. So far he says (in a tutorial he gave last
year) that it's working very well.
He plans another book on his current work - the TSP (Team Software
Process) where he combines the work of several people using the PSP
individually.
> From: Don Wagner
> W.K. - I am far more concerned with a Software Engineering Company's
> Capability Maturity Model (CMM) status than with its ISO 9000 status,
> but, here is the basic reason why I feel a documented process is
> important.
>
> You are a small company that does top-notch work. That's good; however,
> you are in league with thousands of other small companies - some good,
> some bad, vying for work. So, what makes you different from them? You
> have a good track record? Great! But a company can have a good track
> record and still not deliver the goods. Why? Because a key player (or
> players) may quit, taking everything in his head with him.
>
> >
> >Well, all this is very confusing for a small (garage-seed-state)
> >s/w development company (we do software development, usually
> >fixed price contracts, in the Unix area for large clients)
> >attempting to satisfy QA requirements of Fortune100 and large
> >international clients ...
Andrew Worsley
PS: I am the list maintainer for psp-users mailing list (so I may be a little
baised - perhaps for good reason though).
To subscribe send mail to psp-users-request@aaii.oz.au
------------------------------
From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:22:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Request for help
Dear Dave Grummer
I am sorry but I feel that I may now be a disappointment to you. I am
unfortunately a final year student at Leeds Metropolitan University in
England doing a BSc (Hons) in Information systems for business. As part of
our final year we have to do a research project and I chose software
quality. The research potential is massive and I am trying to concentrate on
the following initiatives; ISO9000, ISO12207, SEI's CMM, TQM (Deming prize,
Michael Baldridge and EFQA).
If you do feel that you have any information that you can share with me I
will be most grateful. I have managed to establish contacts in other parts
of the world but I would very much like to know what is going on concerning
quality in Japans' software markets. Can you suggest any sources of information?
Yours sincerely
Sandra Hunter
>From: Dave Grummer
>Dear Sandy,
>
>I'm curious about what your company does... Please tell me about your
>company and what it does and where it is going?
>
>My company Fusion Systems Japan, Inc is a computer consulting company
>based out of Japan. We have about 70 employees where 90% of then are
>engineers. We have three divisions which are seperated into the
>categories of the type of work htat we do. The divisions are Client
>Services, Commercial Systems, and Financial Services:
>
>Client Services designs and sets up computer networks. Which can be
>starting from the raised floors and wiring down to which the actual
>installation of the designed archetecture for the client company.
>
>Financial Services creates custom software based on the customers
>requirements. Usually companies in the financial sector have a good idea
>of what type of software and how the software should be designed.
>
>Commercial Systems creates custom software for companies other than
>financial institutions. But basically is very similar to Financial
>Services.
>
>If you don't know the answers to my questions please forward this letter
>to the head of your marketing and sales departments.
> Thanx in Advance,
> Dave Grummer
>Dave Grummer
>
>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>
>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
>
>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>
>
>At 03:38 PM 1/14/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>>Dear everyone
>>
>>I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
>>relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this new
>>standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be most
>>grateful.
>>
>>Sandra Hunter
>>
>>
>>
>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>
>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
>
>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: Peter Lambert <100665.2143@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 23 Jan 97 11:49:19 EST
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
unsubscribe
------------------------------
From:
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CMMs
Note the supplemental CMMs add to the weight:
Personal CMM [SEI]
People (HR) CMM [SEI]
System Engineering CMM [SEI]
(in progress) Integrated Product CMM [SEI]
but the one that will heat up the contracting shops is the new
Software Acquisition CMM (SA-CMM)
plus now there's an aftermarket:
Testing CMM [??(Nayone recall who/where??) adapted fr. Beizer]
Who recalls the SQA CMM [appx 2 yrs back (ASQC Sfq QA" maybe)]?
Also checkout:
The draft Capability ImMaturity Model (CIMM) [Nov96 Crosstalk]
with the bad seed MINUS levels.
How will the RAB, TiskIT and ISO boards compete with this pace?
I guess this will be better than low-bid wins all.
-- Mike Berens
------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:17:14 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Request for help
Japan is a different world. The western ideas of quality are
interesting to Japanese, but their business driving force is inefficiency.
I can tell this is going to take a long time to explain...
First off Japan has the lowest unemployment rate and thus the government
isn't wasting its money on sponsoring the unemployed. Thus everyone has a
job. It's funny for a westerner to see. For instance, at the discount
chain called Daikuma they have many parking lots. At each parking lot their
is more than one person directing cars in and out. They have probably about
5 parking lots. So their is about 16 people standing around at any one time
doing about nothing.
I'm sure some of the big companies use quality assurance
qualifications but mainly they do this only if they have to. No one in
Japan cares about quality, what they care about is the name of the company.
If your well known then people want to do business with you. And companies
prefer to stay within their own company then to deal with other companies.
That is because it is hard for Japanese people to deal with other people
when there isn't a heirarchy to their group. When dealing with other
companies the relationship is flat no onw is higher then another person so
it an uncomfortable situation for Japanese.
Basically if you want to study about quality Japan is the devil's
advocate to your research. Because here quality counts for shit. If you
want to know further then just keep asking and eventually you'll be able to
get the whole picture from me.
Good luck in your research, but remember on Mars they do things a
bit differently,
DaVey
At 03:22 PM 1/23/97 GMT, you wrote:
>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>Dear Dave Grummer
>
>I am sorry but I feel that I may now be a disappointment to you. I am
>unfortunately a final year student at Leeds Metropolitan University in
>England doing a BSc (Hons) in Information systems for business. As part of
>our final year we have to do a research project and I chose software
>quality. The research potential is massive and I am trying to concentrate on
>the following initiatives; ISO9000, ISO12207, SEI's CMM, TQM (Deming prize,
>Michael Baldridge and EFQA).
>
>If you do feel that you have any information that you can share with me I
>will be most grateful. I have managed to establish contacts in other parts
>of the world but I would very much like to know what is going on concerning
>quality in Japans' software markets. Can you suggest any sources of
information?
>
>Yours sincerely
>
>Sandra Hunter
>
>>From: Dave Grummer
>>Dear Sandy,
>>
>>I'm curious about what your company does... Please tell me about your
>>company and what it does and where it is going?
>>
>>My company Fusion Systems Japan, Inc is a computer consulting company
>>based out of Japan. We have about 70 employees where 90% of then are
>>engineers. We have three divisions which are seperated into the
>>categories of the type of work htat we do. The divisions are Client
>>Services, Commercial Systems, and Financial Services:
>>
>>Client Services designs and sets up computer networks. Which can be
>>starting from the raised floors and wiring down to which the actual
>>installation of the designed archetecture for the client company.
>>
>>Financial Services creates custom software based on the customers
>>requirements. Usually companies in the financial sector have a good idea
>>of what type of software and how the software should be designed.
>>
>>Commercial Systems creates custom software for companies other than
>>financial institutions. But basically is very similar to Financial
>>Services.
>>
>>If you don't know the answers to my questions please forward this letter
>>to the head of your marketing and sales departments.
>> Thanx in Advance,
>> Dave Grummer
>>Dave Grummer
>>
>>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>>
>>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
>>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
>>
>>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>>
>>
>>At 03:38 PM 1/14/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>>>Dear everyone
>>>
>>>I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
>>>relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this new
>>>standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be most
>>>grateful.
>>>
>>>Sandra Hunter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>>
>>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
>>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
>>
>>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
------------------------------
From: "Ramakrishnan, Gopinath"
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:21:50 +0530
Subject: RE: Request for help
Dave Grummer's comment on Japanese Quality is really surprising. All
over the world guys rave about the Japanese Quality systems and its
quality gurus . This is the first time I have come across a viewpoint
that Japanese guys don't care about quality at all. Dave is speaking
from his personal experience. If some more guys share their personal
experiences regarding Japanese
Quality in this forum, may be a true picture will emerge. We can be sure
whether Quality Consicousness among Japanese is a
reality or a myth.
R.Gopinath
>----------
>From: Dave Grummer[SMTP:grummerd@fsj.co.jp]
>Sent: Friday, January 24, 1997 8:47 AM
>To: iso9000-3@quality.org
>Subject: Re: Request for help
>
>From: Dave Grummer
> Japan is a different world. The western ideas of quality are
>interesting to Japanese, but their business driving force is inefficiency.
>I can tell this is going to take a long time to explain...
>First off Japan has the lowest unemployment rate and thus the government
>isn't wasting its money on sponsoring the unemployed. Thus everyone has a
>job. It's funny for a westerner to see. For instance, at the discount
>chain called Daikuma they have many parking lots. At each parking lot their
>is more than one person directing cars in and out. They have probably about
>5 parking lots. So their is about 16 people standing around at any one time
>doing about nothing.
> I'm sure some of the big companies use quality assurance
>qualifications but mainly they do this only if they have to. No one in
>Japan cares about quality, what they care about is the name of the company.
>If your well known then people want to do business with you. And companies
>prefer to stay within their own company then to deal with other companies.
>That is because it is hard for Japanese people to deal with other people
>when there isn't a heirarchy to their group. When dealing with other
>companies the relationship is flat no onw is higher then another person so
>it an uncomfortable situation for Japanese.
> Basically if you want to study about quality Japan is the devil's
>advocate to your research. Because here quality counts for shit. If you
>want to know further then just keep asking and eventually you'll be able to
>get the whole picture from me.
> Good luck in your research, but remember on Mars they do things a
>bit differently,
>DaVey
>At 03:22 PM 1/23/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>>Dear Dave Grummer
>>
>>I am sorry but I feel that I may now be a disappointment to you. I am
>>unfortunately a final year student at Leeds Metropolitan University in
>>England doing a BSc (Hons) in Information systems for business. As part of
>>our final year we have to do a research project and I chose software
>>quality. The research potential is massive and I am trying to concentrate on
>>the following initiatives; ISO9000, ISO12207, SEI's CMM, TQM (Deming prize,
>>Michael Baldridge and EFQA).
>>
>>If you do feel that you have any information that you can share with me I
>>will be most grateful. I have managed to establish contacts in other parts
>>of the world but I would very much like to know what is going on concerning
>>quality in Japans' software markets. Can you suggest any sources of
>information?
>>
>>Yours sincerely
>>
>>Sandra Hunter
>>
>>>From: Dave Grummer
>>>Dear Sandy,
>>>
>>>I'm curious about what your company does... Please tell me about your
>>>company and what it does and where it is going?
>>>
>>>My company Fusion Systems Japan, Inc is a computer consulting company
>>>based out of Japan. We have about 70 employees where 90% of then are
>>>engineers. We have three divisions which are seperated into the
>>>categories of the type of work htat we do. The divisions are Client
>>>Services, Commercial Systems, and Financial Services:
>>>
>>>Client Services designs and sets up computer networks. Which can be
>>>starting from the raised floors and wiring down to which the actual
>>>installation of the designed archetecture for the client company.
>>>
>>>Financial Services creates custom software based on the customers
>>>requirements. Usually companies in the financial sector have a good idea
>>>of what type of software and how the software should be designed.
>>>
>>>Commercial Systems creates custom software for companies other than
>>>financial institutions. But basically is very similar to Financial
>>>Services.
>>>
>>>If you don't know the answers to my questions please forward this letter
>>>to the head of your marketing and sales departments.
>>> Thanx in Advance,
>>> Dave Grummer
>>>Dave Grummer
>>>
>>>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>>>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>>>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>>>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>>>
>>>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
>>>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
>>>
>>>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>>>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>>>
>>>
>>>At 03:38 PM 1/14/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>>>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
>>>>Dear everyone
>>>>
>>>>I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
>>>>relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this
>>>>new
>>>>standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be
>>>>most
>>>>grateful.
>>>>
>>>>Sandra Hunter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>>>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>>>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>>>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>>>
>>>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
>>>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
>>>
>>>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>>>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>
>Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
>Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
>
>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>
>
------------------------------
End of ISO 9000-3 Digest V1 #31
*******************************