ISO 9000-3 Digest Monday, 27 January 1997 Volume 01 : Number 033
In this issue:
BOUNCE iso9000-3@quality.org: Non-member submission from ["KG Krishna" ] (fwd)
Re: Request for help
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
[none]
CONF: Models for Software Quality: Perspectives for Auditors
RCPT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (Moderator)"
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:48:33 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: BOUNCE iso9000-3@quality.org: Non-member submission from ["KG Krishna" ] (fwd)
NOTE: Respond *both* to the poster's address (see below) and to the list's
posting address, OR as directed in the posting, but definitely NOT to me.
Thanks.
Bill
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 03:45:12 -0500
From: "KG Krishna"
To: "'iso9000-3@quality.org'" , iso9000-3@quality.org
Subject: RE: Request for help
From: KG Krishna, Technical Manager, Wipro, India.
=====================================
It is very interesting to probe into Japanese quality. We had
experience working with Japanese software companies.
"Quality" has been oversold and hyped in the west by consultants,
institutions,...by giving esoteric names such as ISO 9000, SEI-CMM,
MBNQA,...After all, it is nothing but `structured common-sense'
which is being sold for money.
In my personal opinion, the single most attribute for Japanese
success in achieving quality is nothing but:
STRONG COMMITTMENT by each and everyone.
DRIVE FOR PERFECTION (making things better..KAIZEN)
DISCIPLINE
HARD-WORK
LOYALTY
TEAM-WORK
the above are strongly embedded in the Japanese culture. They can
define what is Beauty and Perfection to the world. In contrast,
Western quality is dependent on systems, mechanisms and paper-work.
and ofcourse, quality-consultants to teach.
It is no surprise, that Japanese write-off ISO 9000 is nothing but
western-shit emphasizing paper. We have many cases of clients
sharing the same. They still believe in Quality Control (QC)--
a legacy from manufacturing, even in software production.
Regd. Software, I too feel, they are not matured in software
engineering...the software written by a Japanese engineer is a maverick
code understandable only to oneself.
In a nutshell, it is the JAPANESE CULTURE that is the driving force
behind their success in Quality more than anything else. We, in
India, too can practise ISO 9000/SEI-CMM, but long way to go to
mature to the real quality `culture'.
====
> From: "Ramakrishnan, Gopinath"
> To: "'iso9000-3@quality.org'"
> Subject: RE: Request for help
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:21:50 +0530
> Reply-to: iso9000-3@quality.org
> From: "Ramakrishnan, Gopinath"
> Dave Grummer's comment on Japanese Quality is really surprising. All
> over the world guys rave about the Japanese Quality systems and its
> quality gurus . This is the first time I have come across a viewpoint
> that Japanese guys don't care about quality at all. Dave is speaking
> from his personal experience. If some more guys share their personal
> experiences regarding Japanese
> Quality in this forum, may be a true picture will emerge. We can be sure
> whether Quality Consicousness among Japanese is a
> reality or a myth.
>
> R.Gopinath
> >----------
> >From: Dave Grummer[SMTP:grummerd@fsj.co.jp]
> >Sent: Friday, January 24, 1997 8:47 AM
> >To: iso9000-3@quality.org
> >Subject: Re: Request for help
> >
> >From: Dave Grummer
> > Japan is a different world. The western ideas of quality are
> >interesting to Japanese, but their business driving force is inefficiency.
> >I can tell this is going to take a long time to explain...
> >First off Japan has the lowest unemployment rate and thus the government
> >isn't wasting its money on sponsoring the unemployed. Thus everyone has a
> >job. It's funny for a westerner to see. For instance, at the discount
> >chain called Daikuma they have many parking lots. At each parking lot their
> >is more than one person directing cars in and out. They have probably about
> >5 parking lots. So their is about 16 people standing around at any one time
> >doing about nothing.
> > I'm sure some of the big companies use quality assurance
> >qualifications but mainly they do this only if they have to. No one in
> >Japan cares about quality, what they care about is the name of the company.
> >If your well known then people want to do business with you. And companies
> >prefer to stay within their own company then to deal with other companies.
> >That is because it is hard for Japanese people to deal with other people
> >when there isn't a heirarchy to their group. When dealing with other
> >companies the relationship is flat no onw is higher then another person so
> >it an uncomfortable situation for Japanese.
> > Basically if you want to study about quality Japan is the devil's
> >advocate to your research. Because here quality counts for shit. If you
> >want to know further then just keep asking and eventually you'll be able to
> >get the whole picture from me.
> > Good luck in your research, but remember on Mars they do things a
> >bit differently,
> >DaVey
> >At 03:22 PM 1/23/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
> >>Dear Dave Grummer
> >>
> >>I am sorry but I feel that I may now be a disappointment to you. I am
> >>unfortunately a final year student at Leeds Metropolitan University in
> >>England doing a BSc (Hons) in Information systems for business. As part of
> >>our final year we have to do a research project and I chose software
> >>quality. The research potential is massive and I am trying to concentrate on
> >>the following initiatives; ISO9000, ISO12207, SEI's CMM, TQM (Deming prize,
> >>Michael Baldridge and EFQA).
> >>
> >>If you do feel that you have any information that you can share with me I
> >>will be most grateful. I have managed to establish contacts in other parts
> >>of the world but I would very much like to know what is going on concerning
> >>quality in Japans' software markets. Can you suggest any sources of
> >information?
> >>
> >>Yours sincerely
> >>
> >>Sandra Hunter
> >>
> >>>From: Dave Grummer
> >>>Dear Sandy,
> >>>
> >>>I'm curious about what your company does... Please tell me about your
> >>>company and what it does and where it is going?
> >>>
> >>>My company Fusion Systems Japan, Inc is a computer consulting company
> >>>based out of Japan. We have about 70 employees where 90% of then are
> >>>engineers. We have three divisions which are seperated into the
> >>>categories of the type of work htat we do. The divisions are Client
> >>>Services, Commercial Systems, and Financial Services:
> >>>
> >>>Client Services designs and sets up computer networks. Which can be
> >>>starting from the raised floors and wiring down to which the actual
> >>>installation of the designed archetecture for the client company.
> >>>
> >>>Financial Services creates custom software based on the customers
> >>>requirements. Usually companies in the financial sector have a good idea
> >>>of what type of software and how the software should be designed.
> >>>
> >>>Commercial Systems creates custom software for companies other than
> >>>financial institutions. But basically is very similar to Financial
> >>>Services.
> >>>
> >>>If you don't know the answers to my questions please forward this letter
> >>>to the head of your marketing and sales departments.
> >>> Thanx in Advance,
> >>> Dave Grummer
> >>>Dave Grummer
> >>>
> >>>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
> >>>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
> >>>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
> >>>Tokyo 153,Japan.
> >>>
> >>>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
> >>>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
> >>>
> >>>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
> >>>http://www.fsj.co.jp
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>At 03:38 PM 1/14/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >>>>From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
> >>>>Dear everyone
> >>>>
> >>>>I am trying to do some research into ISO9000 applied to software and its
> >>>>relationship to ISO12207. There seems to be very little written on this
> >>>>new
> >>>>standard. Is it the future of ISO9000-3? If anyone can help I would be
> >>>>most
> >>>>grateful.
> >>>>
> >>>>Sandra Hunter
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
> >>>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
> >>>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
> >>>Tokyo 153,Japan.
> >>>
> >>>Tel : 81-3-5456-7561
> >>>Fax : 81-3-5458-4422
> >>>
> >>>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
> >>>http://www.fsj.co.jp
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
> >No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
> >Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
> >Tokyo 153,Japan.
> >
> >Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
> >Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
> >
> >grummerd@fsj.co.jp
> >http://www.fsj.co.jp
> >
> >
>
>
==================================================
KG Krishna, Technical Manager HDC-FE
Wipro Systems
2nd Floor
1-8-448 Begumpet, Laxmi Bldg.
SECUNDERABAD-500 016, INDIA
Email: kgk@wipsys.stph.net
Tel (Direct): +91 (40) 817215
Fax : +91 (40) 866123
Home: +91 (40) 819952
==================================================
------------------------------
From: sandy@premier.co.uk (Sandra Hunter)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:24:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Request for help
Can I please ask (as nicely as possible) people not to request personal
mailings on this subject. I initially asked the question about what the
current situation for quality in Japan was and what initiatives were popular
in Japan. The reason for this is that I am trying to conduct some research
into Quality Initiatives in IT. If people request personal postings then it
restricts the flow of information.
On a different note..
I want to learn how opinions of quality vary in different parts of the
world. I also find the submission from Dave Grummer very surprising and
contradictory to what I have been lead to believe. Is it not true that the
Japanese success was based on the quality revolution started by Deming in
1950? If this is not true I would really like to know where quality stands
in Japan and if we in the West has blown the 'quality thing and Japan' out
of proportion.
If anyone can share information on quality from any other parts of the world
please submit them as I may also be under false impressions for India,
Australia and anywhere else!
Thanyou
Sandra Hunter
>From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
>Dave Grummer wrote:
>>
>> From: Dave Grummer
>> Japan is a different world. The western ideas of quality are
>> interesting to Japanese, but their business driving force is inefficiency.
>
>There *may* be *some* merit i this, if it provides employment to those
>who would, in a strictly competitive job market, be unemployed and have
>no meaningful social role. I remember
>when American corporations used to keep marginally functional people
>on the payroll as mail clerks, etc., as a kind of social service. Is
>there any connection here?
>
>> I can tell this is going to take a long time to explain...
>> First off Japan has the lowest unemployment rate and thus the government
>> isn't wasting its money on sponsoring the unemployed.
>
>(Is is wasting money on the unproductive *em*ployed?)
>
>> Thus everyone has a
>> job. It's funny for a westerner to see. For instance, at the discount
>> chain called Daikuma they have many parking lots. At each parking lot their
>> is more than one person directing cars in and out. They have probably about
>> 5 parking lots. So their is about 16 people standing around at any one time
>> doing about nothing.
>> I'm sure some of the big companies use quality assurance
>> qualifications but mainly they do this only if they have to. No one in
>> Japan cares about quality,
>
>Could you please elaborate! I've always heard the cliche that Japan is
>the
>land of HIGH QUALITY production.
>
>> what they care about is the name of the company.
>> If your well known then people want to do business with you. And companies
>> prefer to stay within their own company then to deal with other companies.
>> That is because it is hard for Japanese people to deal with other people
>> when there isn't a heirarchy to their group.
>
>This sounds plausible (I spent some time in Japan and have a
>little sense of their ways of social interaction).
>
>> When dealing with other
>> companies the relationship is flat no onw is higher then another person so
>> it an uncomfortable situation for Japanese.
>
>This makes sense from my experience.
>
>> Basically if you want to study about quality Japan is the devil's
>> advocate to your research. Because here quality counts for shit. If you
>> want to know further then just keep asking and eventually you'll be able to
>> get the whole picture from me.
>
>Please! More information (either on the list or to me personally if
>others are not interested)!
>
>> Good luck in your research, but remember on Mars they do things a
>> bit differently,
>[snip]
>
>(In a somewhat different context, see pages 11-12 of Ivan Morris, "The
>World
>of the Shining Prince: Court Life in Ancient Japan", Penguin, 1964,
>1969,
>for a description of another Japan that was very different from the
>West.
>Excerpted on my WEB site at: http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/essays.html
>(bottom of page). Morris uses almost the identical metaphor of
>"foreignness"
>like going to a different planet -- albeit a different different
>planet than the one Grummer-san apparently finds himself on....)
>
>--
> Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
> Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
>
>Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
>bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
>27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
>----------------------------------------------
>Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
>
>
------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:50:09 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Communism gave everyone a job, thus with 100% employement you would think
that the production rate would be fantastic. But since everyone was
guaranteed a job, the russain people saw no reason to get anything done.
An example my russain friend uses is that from the time that he was born
until the time that he left russia they were building an apartment; 10
years baby. If you take 10 years to build a building does that mean the
building is of good quality (no!). The best example though that an
american can best understand can be stated in one misspelled word
Chernobal.
Quality may be a part of business today but it doesn't mean it always was
or that it always will be.
DaVey
Dave Grummer
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Don Wagner wrote:
> From: Don Wagner
> Regarding the employment vs. "welfare" economies. A friend told me that
> in the USSR everyone had a job; every bathroom had a towel attendant,
> etc. How that affects quality, I don't know. I'm not even sure if it
> is necessarily an indication of work ethic.
>
> I could go on and on...
>
> Don E. Wagner
> donw@4cs.com
> (309) 755-0199 Ext 140
> (309) 755-3099 FAX
> http://www.4cs.com
>
> A small advance every day
>
> will eventually total
>
> much less than a big advance every
> day.
>
>
------------------------------
From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:22:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Dave Grummer wrote:
>
> From: Dave Grummer
> Communism gave everyone a job, thus with 100% employement you would think
> that the production rate would be fantastic. But since everyone was
> guaranteed a job, the russain people saw no reason to get anything done.
Are you certain that *guaranteed employment* ws the *sole*reason for
low productivity in the former Soviet Union and its allies? Is there
even the faintest possibility that either or both:
(1) the specific nature of these countries' leadership, which was a
repressive dictatorship, and
(2) the relentless efforts from the day the October Revolution
occurred, of the Western powers to *crush* the revolution by
*choking* the populations of these countries into reactionary
counter-revolution (see, e.g., George Kennan's "X" article in
Foreign Affairs, ca. 1947)
just might have had the least bit also to do with creating this
situation?
Furthermore, the outcome of the final "success" of the Western agenda
has produced many "productivity enhancements" in areas which are
humanly of dubious value, such as organized crime.
> An example my russain friend uses is that from the time that he was born
> until the time that he left russia they were building an apartment; 10
> years baby.
I have an even better story: One day the inspectors came to check
out construction on an apartment complex. As the inspectors ascended
from floor to floor, workers -- quite industriously, if not exactly
"productively" would remove bathtubs from the lower floors and
install them on the higher floors, so that the inspectors would find
bathtubs everywhere they checked (most of the bathtubs had been
"diverted" previously). This story comes from a scientist who
was involved in joint US-Soviet space projects in the 1970s.
> If you take 10 years to build a building does that mean the
> building is of good quality (no!). The best example though that an
> american can best understand can be stated in one misspelled word
> Chernobal.
It should be kept in mind that the Western countries have not been
entirely clean of "nuclear (and other!) accidents"
(and of repression of information
regarding same). And, once again, the question can be asked whether some
of the defects of Russian reactor designs might have been
at least in part the result of the West's refusal to provide
information to aid the Russians in doing a better job. Indeed, on
a slightly different subject, but on the issue of quality, Western
rocket scientists who have recently learned about Russian rocket
motor designs have been surprised by their intelligence and robustness,
which have made the Russian designs in ways superior to our own (recent
New York Times Science Section feature article).
> Quality may be a part of business today but it doesn't mean it always was
> or that it always will be.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that quality may be a part of
*some* businesses today (etc.)? Making profits dictates quality as
a means, not an end. "Bad money drives out good." And speaking of
"driving", remember the old Packhard slogan: "Ask the man who owns one"?
Packhards were, correct me if I am wrong, quality cars.
[snip]
- --
Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
- ----------------------------------------------
Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
------------------------------
From: "Trish Edwards"
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:07:27 -0700
Subject: [none]
unsubscribe
------------------------------
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (Moderator)"
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:23:03 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: CONF: Models for Software Quality: Perspectives for Auditors
Be sure to use whatever c0ontact information is provided in the post
below. Don't cc: me.
Thanks.
Bill
- -------------------- Forwarded Posting --------------------
What: Pre-Conference Tutorial
Models for Software Quality: Perspectives for Auditors
Presented by Bill Deibler and Robert Bamford,
Software Systems Quality Consulting
Where: 6th Annual Quality Audit Conference
"Audits Supporting the Management System"
Los Angeles, CA
Who: Sponsored by the ASQC Quality Audit Division
When: Tutorials: February 25-26, 1997
Conference: February 27-28, 1997
This tutorial is for experienced auditors, audit managers, quality
system implementors, and quality assurance engineers who:
* Must conduct assessments to establish or improve the capability of
internal and external software engineering practices,
* Rrequire an understanding of software engineering practices from
the perspective of ISO 9000-3 and the Software Engineering
Institute (SEI) Capability Maturity Model (CMM).
The course focuses on the application of value-added process auditing
within software engineering environments. Value-added auditing integrates
compliance auditing with process improvement to trigger change that
can prevent problems from occurring and that can improve process
effectiveness and efficiency.
This highly interactive tutorial contains numerous examples and
workshops drawn from the auditor's perspective and includes an
opportunity to participate in an audit of a typical software
engineering organization.
Additional information on the ASQC Audit Conference can be obtained from
the ASQC Audit Division web page at:
http://www.asqc.org/membinfo/divisions/qad/con1997/ASQC.HOME.html
A more detailed description of the tutorial can be obtained at:
http://www.concentric.net/~Ssqc/pages/edutrain.htm#C205
Questions and information on the Tutorials and conference can be obtained
from ASQC at 800-248-1946.
- ----------------
------------------------------
From: "JAN HAUSMAN"
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:37:23 NZST-12
Subject: RCPT:
Confirmation of reading: your message -
Date: 27 Jan 97 9:07
To: iso9000-3@quality.org
Subject:
Was read at 8:37, 28 Jan 97.
******************************************************
Jan Hausman
Quality Assurance Adviser
Educational Development
Manukau Institute of Technology
Private Bag 94006, Manukau City, Auckland, New Zealand
jhausman@manukau.ac.nz
*******************************************************
------------------------------
End of ISO 9000-3 Digest V1 #33
*******************************