ISO 9000-3 Digest Wednesday, 29 January 1997 Volume 01 : Number 034
In this issue:
RCPT:
RCPT:
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Elizabeth C. Buckingham"
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:37:25 -0400
Subject: RCPT:
Confirmation of reading: your message -
Date: 27 Jan 97 9:07
To: iso9000-3@quality.org
Subject:
Was read at 15:37, 27 Jan 97.
************************************************************************
Elizabeth Buckingham Phone: 613-233-0234
Principal Fax: 613-567-1572
HALLUX Consulting Inc. Internet: ecbuckin@hallux.on.ca
440 Laurier Ave W., Suite 200
Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA, K1R 7X6
************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Frank Bonk"
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:07:03 EST
Subject: RCPT:
Confirmation of reading: your message -
Date: 27 Jan 97 9:07
To: iso9000-3@quality.org
Subject:
Was read at 17:07, 27 Jan 97.
Frank Bonk
Software Quality Asurance Manager
Nicolet Biomedical, Inc.
Voice: (608) 273-5000 x2292
e-mail:bonk@nicolet.com
------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:25:28 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
At 06:22 AM 1/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
>Dave Grummer wrote:
>>
>> From: Dave Grummer
>> Communism gave everyone a job, thus with 100% employement you would think
>> that the production rate would be fantastic. But since everyone was
>> guaranteed a job, the russain people saw no reason to get anything done.
>
>Are you certain that *guaranteed employment* ws the *sole*reason for
>low productivity in the former Soviet Union and its allies? Is there
>even the faintest possibility that either or both:
>
> (1) the specific nature of these countries' leadership, which was a
> repressive dictatorship, and
>
> (2) the relentless efforts from the day the October Revolution
> occurred, of the Western powers to *crush* the revolution by
> *choking* the populations of these countries into reactionary
> counter-revolution (see, e.g., George Kennan's "X" article in
> Foreign Affairs, ca. 1947)
>
>just might have had the least bit also to do with creating this
>situation?
If you think the US had a major impact in destroying the USSR, you've been
reading the newspaper too much. The the old communist government was plenty
good at destroying itself. Although the communist dictatorship was
repressive beileve it or not Russains would argue that economically since
the government didn't have to pay for labor and products the government
always had money to do public works(e.g. space program, building apartment
buildings, super powered nuclear power plants). But since the biggest
problem was distibution(which the government unfortunitily controlled) the
government was eventually forced to change to feed its people.
>
>Furthermore, the outcome of the final "success" of the Western agenda
>has produced many "productivity enhancements" in areas which are
>humanly of dubious value, such as organized crime.
>
>> An example my russain friend uses is that from the time that he was born
>> until the time that he left russia they were building an apartment; 10
>> years baby.
>
>I have an even better story: One day the inspectors came to check
>out construction on an apartment complex. As the inspectors ascended
>from floor to floor, workers -- quite industriously, if not exactly
>"productively" would remove bathtubs from the lower floors and
>install them on the higher floors, so that the inspectors would find
>bathtubs everywhere they checked (most of the bathtubs had been
>"diverted" previously). This story comes from a scientist who
>was involved in joint US-Soviet space projects in the 1970s.
>
>> If you take 10 years to build a building does that mean the
>> building is of good quality (no!). The best example though that an
>> american can best understand can be stated in one misspelled word
>> Chernobal.
>
>It should be kept in mind that the Western countries have not been
>entirely clean of "nuclear (and other!) accidents"
May I remind you that the Western world have had a shit load of nucleur
accidents 3 mile island Penn. to name one. They are still producing 3
headed chickens and cows around that area. The nuclear power plants in the
US and Russia are considerably different in power production and safety.
The US nuclear power plants are safe and produce little power. The russian
nuclear power plants are run at high temperature, produce much more energy,
and are incredibly unsafe.
>(and of repression of information
>regarding same). And, once again, the question can be asked whether some
>of the defects of Russian reactor designs might have been
>at least in part the result of the West's refusal to provide
>information to aid the Russians in doing a better job. Indeed, on
>a slightly different subject, but on the issue of quality, Western
>rocket scientists who have recently learned about Russian rocket
>motor designs have been surprised by their intelligence and robustness,
>which have made the Russian designs in ways superior to our own (recent
>New York Times Science Section feature article).
>
>> Quality may be a part of business today but it doesn't mean it always was
>> or that it always will be.
>
>Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that quality may be a part of
>*some* businesses today (etc.)? Making profits dictates quality as
>a means, not an end. "Bad money drives out good." And speaking of
>"driving", remember the old Packhard slogan: "Ask the man who owns one"?
>Packhards were, correct me if I am wrong, quality cars.
>
>[snip]
>
>--
> Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
> Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
>
>Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
>bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
>27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
>----------------------------------------------
>Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
>To remove yourself from this list, address a
>
>
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
------------------------------
From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:23:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Dave Grummer wrote:
>
> From: Dave Grummer
> At 06:22 AM 1/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
> >Dave Grummer wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Dave Grummer
> >> Communism gave everyone a job, thus with 100% employement you would think
> >> that the production rate would be fantastic. But since everyone was
> >> guaranteed a job, the russain people saw no reason to get anything done.
> >
> >Are you certain that *guaranteed employment* ws the *sole*reason for
> >low productivity in the former Soviet Union and its allies? Is there
> >even the faintest possibility that either or both:
> >
> > (1) the specific nature of these countries' leadership, which was a
> > repressive dictatorship, and
> >
> > (2) the relentless efforts from the day the October Revolution
> > occurred, of the Western powers to *crush* the revolution by
> > *choking* the populations of these countries into reactionary
> > counter-revolution (see, e.g., George Kennan's "X" article in
> > Foreign Affairs, ca. 1947)
> >
> >just might have had the least bit also to do with creating this
> >situation?
>
> If you think the US had a major impact in destroying the USSR, you've been
> reading the newspaper too much.
No, I read D.F. Fleming's "The Cold War and Its Origins" and a lot of
other
related stuff, back in the late 60s and early 70s (and also Kennan's
manifesto). The fact that World War II was won on Russian soil (with
the destruction of Russian cities and factories, among other things)
and with Russian bodies, while the US proceeded uner a peaceful
sky to massively augment both the size and sophistication of
its industrial base with only small (proportionate to GNP,
not in terms of impact on individuals and families) number of
casualties may also have contributed.
A really interesting
question, IMO, is how and why, at the end of WWII, when the US
had well over half the production capacity of the planet, and
the great intellectual capital of all the scientists and others
who had fled to here from Germany (etc.) -- how with all that
potential, we *blew it* and ended up a paranoid society that
has finally burnt itself out into aimless economic brownian motion, when
we had the chance to shape the world, by first shaping our own
society, into something better? (When once I proposed something
from a Swedish text on technological work process, my manager
just laughed and said: "Oh, that's just Swedish stuff", and
I wondered what that had to do with those ideas suggesting
how to improve the
sociologically primitive forms of wqorkplace organization here).
Sort of like IBM, which, after
System/360, somehow "lost it".
The question is not so much why the
Russians didn't do too well (there were more than enough reasons), but
why
*we* didn't do better (there were more than enough missed
opportunities).
[snip]
> >
> >> Quality may be a part of business today but it doesn't mean it always was
> >> or that it always will be.
> >
> >Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that quality may be a part of
> >*some* businesses today (etc.)? Making profits dictates quality as
> >a means, not an end. "Bad money drives out good." And speaking of
> >"driving", remember the old Packhard slogan: "Ask the man who owns one"?
> >Packhards were, correct me if I am wrong, quality cars.
Response?
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >--
> > Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
> > Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
> >
> >Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
> >bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
> >27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
> >----------------------------------------------
> >Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
> >To remove yourself from this list, address a
> >
> >
> Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
> No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
> Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
> Tokyo 153,Japan.
>
> Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
> Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
>
> grummerd@fsj.co.jp
> http://www.fsj.co.jp
>
> To remove yourself from this list, address a
- --
Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
- ----------------------------------------------
Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
------------------------------
From: Don Delauder
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:23:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Could I ask that you two take this discussion offline? It's got zero to
do with ISO9000-3 and it is getting tiresome.
Thanks in advance,
Don
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don DeLauder Email: delauder@cdi.com
Computational Diagnostics, Inc. Voice: (412) 681-9990
5001 Baum Blvd. FAX: (412) 681-9994
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:13:00 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Dear Don DeLauder,
If you were paying attention on previous arguments you would understand why
this new group arguments have lead in this direction. First I stated in
Japan inefficiency has made this economy strong, which in direct conflict to
what most ISO consultants would have you to believe. Inefficiency driving a
growing economy; a wierd idea, but true. Once this statement was made the
new group started exploring the opposite arguments of quality in order to
understand the previous statement. We later found a failed economy russia
and were using this countries as a counter-counter example of an inefficient
economy that went wrong. And that is still where we stand at the moment. I
haven't been convinced yet that quality in a business is essencial. Thus it
is the job of all the ISO consultants in the world to defend their honour
and prove me wrong. But if your O.K. with letting an opposing argument to
quality stand on a quality news group then I'm not one to argue with that.
To-chi-a,
DaVey GrumMer
At 09:23 AM 1/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Don Delauder
>
>Could I ask that you two take this discussion offline? It's got zero to
>do with ISO9000-3 and it is getting tiresome.
>
>Thanks in advance,
> Don
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Don DeLauder Email: delauder@cdi.com
>Computational Diagnostics, Inc. Voice: (412) 681-9990
>5001 Baum Blvd. FAX: (412) 681-9994
>Pittsburgh, PA 15213
>
>To remove yourself from this list, address a
>
>
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:26:30 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
At 08:23 AM 1/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
>Dave Grummer wrote:
>>
>> From: Dave Grummer
>> At 06:22 AM 1/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> >From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D."
>> >Dave Grummer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From: Dave Grummer
>> >> Communism gave everyone a job, thus with 100% employement you would think
>> >> that the production rate would be fantastic. But since everyone was
>> >> guaranteed a job, the russain people saw no reason to get anything done.
>> >
>> >Are you certain that *guaranteed employment* ws the *sole*reason for
>> >low productivity in the former Soviet Union and its allies? Is there
>> >even the faintest possibility that either or both:
>> >
>> > (1) the specific nature of these countries' leadership, which was a
>> > repressive dictatorship, and
>> >
>> > (2) the relentless efforts from the day the October Revolution
>> > occurred, of the Western powers to *crush* the revolution by
>> > *choking* the populations of these countries into reactionary
>> > counter-revolution (see, e.g., George Kennan's "X" article in
>> > Foreign Affairs, ca. 1947)
>> >
>> >just might have had the least bit also to do with creating this
>> >situation?
>>
>> If you think the US had a major impact in destroying the USSR, you've been
>> reading the newspaper too much.
>
First I find it funny that someone is quoting a book which was written
before my time. The history books have changed alot after the secret
documents of both russia and the usa were declassified. But you do bring up
an interesting question. Why didn't the US do any better after WWII?
Having 1/2 the production of the world. Where does the question of quality
fit into this picture? I believe since we had most of the production, that
would mean that the rest of the world wasn't as well developed after WWII.
Now the world economy is more developed thus usa is only a small amount of
the world, so it only produces proportionally closer to it population. If
you produce 1/2 and consume 1/2 without exporting/importing trade then your
economy is not necessarily growing and with Europe totalled and Asia sucking
their thumbs their was no real world economy to talk about. So I would say
we did do great:we spawned a world economy, we started exporting to every
town on the planet, and we spawned a technological explosion. Not bad for a
country with only twice the number of people in Japan.
DaVey GrumMer
>No, I read D.F. Fleming's "The Cold War and Its Origins" and a lot of
>other
>related stuff, back in the late 60s and early 70s (and also Kennan's
>manifesto). The fact that World War II was won on Russian soil (with
>the destruction of Russian cities and factories, among other things)
>and with Russian bodies, while the US proceeded uner a peaceful
>sky to massively augment both the size and sophistication of
>its industrial base with only small (proportionate to GNP,
>not in terms of impact on individuals and families) number of
>casualties may also have contributed.
>
>A really interesting
>question, IMO, is how and why, at the end of WWII, when the US
>had well over half the production capacity of the planet, and
>the great intellectual capital of all the scientists and others
>who had fled to here from Germany (etc.) -- how with all that
>potential, we *blew it* and ended up a paranoid society that
>has finally burnt itself out into aimless economic brownian motion, when
>we had the chance to shape the world, by first shaping our own
>society, into something better? (When once I proposed something
>from a Swedish text on technological work process, my manager
>just laughed and said: "Oh, that's just Swedish stuff", and
>I wondered what that had to do with those ideas suggesting
>how to improve the
>sociologically primitive forms of wqorkplace organization here).
>Sort of like IBM, which, after
>System/360, somehow "lost it".
>
>The question is not so much why the
>Russians didn't do too well (there were more than enough reasons), but
>why
>*we* didn't do better (there were more than enough missed
>opportunities).
>
>[snip]
>> >
>> >> Quality may be a part of business today but it doesn't mean it always was
>> >> or that it always will be.
>> >
>> >Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that quality may be a part of
>> >*some* businesses today (etc.)? Making profits dictates quality as
>> >a means, not an end. "Bad money drives out good." And speaking of
>> >"driving", remember the old Packhard slogan: "Ask the man who owns one"?
>> >Packhards were, correct me if I am wrong, quality cars.
>
>Response?
>
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >--
>> > Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
>> > Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
>> >
>> >Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
>> >bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
>> >27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
>> >----------------------------------------------
>> >Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
>> >To remove yourself from this list, address a
>> >
>> >
>> Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>> No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>> Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>> Tokyo 153,Japan.
>>
>> Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
>> Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
>>
>> grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>> http://www.fsj.co.jp
>>
>> To remove yourself from this list, address a
>
>--
> Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
> Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
>
>Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
>bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
>27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
>----------------------------------------------
>Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
>To remove yourself from this list, address a
>
>
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
------------------------------
From: "Paquin, Sherolyn A."
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 6:52:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
I think this conversation is fascinating; especially since I have no
experience with other countries. I would like it to continue!
Sherry
WHEN QUALITY IS INVISIBLE, WE WILL HAVE WON!
************************************************************************
Sherry Paquin SAP01@MHS.Sperry-Marine.COM
Sperry Marine w: 804-974-2078
1070 Seminole Trail f: 804-974-2480
Charlottesville, VA 22901-2891
************************************************************************
------------------------------
End of ISO 9000-3 Digest V1 #34
*******************************