ISO 9000-3 Digest Thursday, 30 January 1997 Volume 01 : Number 035
In this issue:
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
RE: Employed versus Unemployed.
RE: (Employed versus Unemployed) and the whole concept of ISO 9000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Emilio Rodr\mguez"
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
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Paquin, Sherolyn A. wrote:
>
> From: "Paquin, Sherolyn A."
> I think this conversation is fascinating; especially since I have no
> experience with other countries. I would like it to continue!
>
I agree also on it, but I thint it must not be the hot point in this
newsgroup,
what would it happen if a new employed-unemployed newsgroup were
created to enthusiastic people in this subject and we let iso9000-3
become
in the focus of the discussions.
Thanks,
- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
..... ### ###### Emilio Rodríguez
Rodríguez
..... ### ######## TELEFONICA c/ Emilio Vargas, 6
..... ### # ### ### INVESTIGACION 28043 Madrid (SPAIN)
ooooo ### ##### ### ### Y Phone: +34 1 337 4278
ooooo ### # ######## DESARROLLO Fax: +34 1 337 4212
ooooo ### ###### E-mail: err@tid.es
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Paquin, Sherolyn A. wrote:
>
> From: "Paquin, Sherolyn A." <sap01@mhs.sperry-marine.com>
> I think this conversation is fascinating; especially since I have
no
> experience with other countries. I would like it to continue!
>
I agree also on it, but I thint it must not be the hot point in this newsgroup,
what would it happen if a new employed-unemployed newsgroup were
created to enthusiastic people in this subject and we let
iso9000-3 become
in the focus of the discussions.
Thanks,
- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
..... ### ######
Emilio Rodríguez Rodríguez
..... ### ########
TELEFONICA c/ Emilio Vargas,
6
..... ### # ###
### INVESTIGACION 28043 Madrid (SPAIN)
ooooo ### ##### ### ###
Y
Phone: +34 1 337 4278
ooooo ### # ########
DESARROLLO Fax:
+34 1 337 4212
ooooo ### ######
E-mail: err@tid.es
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------1FB7A027EA715--
------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:18:39 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Yeah one more vote for the good guys. You mean a news group can explore the
issues around its main topic; what will they think of next?!
By the way when quality is invisible we will know that we are producing bad
quality products ignorantly!!
Dave Grummer
At 06:52 AM 1/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Paquin, Sherolyn A."
>I think this conversation is fascinating; especially since I have no
>experience with other countries. I would like it to continue!
>
>Sherry
>
> WHEN QUALITY IS INVISIBLE, WE WILL HAVE WON!
>
>************************************************************************
> Sherry Paquin SAP01@MHS.Sperry-Marine.COM
> Sperry Marine w: 804-974-2078
> 1070 Seminole Trail f: 804-974-2480
> Charlottesville, VA 22901-2891
>************************************************************************
>
>To remove yourself from this list, address a
>
>
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
------------------------------
From: Dave Grummer
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:41:04 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
Dear Bradford McCormick,
At 07:11 AM 1/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Dave Grummer wrote:
>>
>> From: Dave Grummer
>> Dear Don DeLauder,
>> If you were paying attention on previous arguments you would understand why
>> this new group arguments have lead in this direction. First I stated in
>> Japan inefficiency has made this economy strong, which in direct conflict to
>> what most ISO consultants would have you to believe. Inefficiency driving a
>> growing economy; a wierd idea, but true.
>[snip]
>
>I must have missed the origins of this thread, or else you have here
>summarized what you've written so now I *can* see what's going on.
>
>Inefficiency driving a growing economy makes perfectly good sense
>to me, and well fits in with my sense of Japan is all about (you
>have just stated it at last in a form that is really *clear and to the
>point*).
>
>But I have one question: Are you claiming that Japanese do not
>care about *quality* in the product?
What they care about is the, bottom line, the all powerful ichi man en(Yen).
Quality is on the list though; somewhere above pinching the secretaries ass
daily.
>
>Further, whatever the Japanese do or don't do
>(or some do and some don't),
>are you asserting that socially productive inefficiency is
>*incompatible* with producing *quality* products? I would think
>that Japan is an example of the opposite: *both* socially
>productive inefficiency *and* quality (ineed, the former
>fostering the latter by applying more workers to a given task).
If everyone was socially productively inefficient and produced *quality*
products then this social inefficiency would make sense, but since the US
doesn't have this social inefficiency then one of your questions comes back
to haunt me, "Why didn't we do better after WWII?". Then this question
leads to the question why aren't we doing better now? We are doing OK
actually but if Japan is so inefficent with its workforce then why aren't we
clobbering them in the global market?
Dave grummer
>
>(I'm sending this to you personally because of having
>been admonished. If you wish to post it and your reply to
>the list, that's OK with me.)
>
>
>
>--
> Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
> Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
>
>Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
>bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
>27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
>----------------------------------------------
>Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
>
>
Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
Tokyo 153,Japan.
Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
grummerd@fsj.co.jp
http://www.fsj.co.jp
------------------------------
From: "Paquin, Sherolyn A."
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 8:51:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
>By the way when quality is invisible we will know that we are producing
bad
>quality products ignorantly!!
>Dave Grummer
If that is the case you should fire you quality engineers now, for they
are not doing their job!
Sherry
WHEN QUALITY IS INVISIBLE, WE WILL HAVE WON!
************************************************************************
Sherry Paquin SAP01@MHS.Sperry-Marine.COM
Sperry Marine w: 804-974-2078
1070 Seminole Trail f: 804-974-2480
Charlottesville, VA 22901-2891
************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: KSIZER@danriver.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:11:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
> If that is the case you should fire you quality engineers now, for they
> are not doing their job!
Sherry,
Your point escapes me.
Not to spawn a digression of a digression, but could you clarify?
--Ken
// Kenneth B. Sizer, II
// Software Engineer
// Dan River, Inc.
------------------------------
From: Gary Edge
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:24:10 -0700
Subject: RE: Employed versus Unemployed.
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I'm sure by now all of us know that we should all be Marxists and why =
the U.S. is the =
capitalist-hell-hole-responsible-for-destroying-the-USSR-workers'-paradis=
e.
This thread "Employed versus Unemployed" was only marginally on point at =
its beginning. It is so far afield now, it appears to belong in =
listserv@marxistpropaganda.org. Given the growing number of gentle =
"take-it-somewhere-else" messages, I would have expected by now you =
would have done so.
Since you have not, it is apparently time for a refresher... Please =
take a look at the group's guidelines, especially the second and fourth =
paragraphs, and then, please, take this discussion somewhere else, =
unless you mean to imply that your discussion of Post-WWII political =
systems relates to the application of ISO-9000 to software systems.
Regards,
Gary Edge
ISO9000-3
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------------------------------
From: Don Wagner
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:12:33 -0600
Subject: RE: (Employed versus Unemployed) and the whole concept of ISO 9000
Just a few IMHO thoughts touching on some of the many issues generated
by "Employed vs Unemployed".
It is troubling that the U.S. didn't do better after WWII, but not the
least bit surprising. What possible motivation did they have to do so?
Government contracts were everywhere, foreign competition was null, and
the design sense of the day was "planned obsolescence". Customers were
referred to as "suckers", "fish on the line", etc. I remember when
someone getting 100,000 miles out of a car was one of those "urban
myth/legends". U.S. carmakers continued to sell cars no matter how fast
they fell apart, and everyone was fat, dumb and happy. Who cared?
As for how the Japanese have affected quality, we are forgetting one
very important thing - ISO 9000 and CMM certification does not mean
quality. Quality means quality, and we tend to forget that.
Certification is just an arbitrary standard (like I.Q.) to determine the
"likelihood" that a company is capable of producing a quality product.
IMHO the Japanese have a hard time understanding why everyone is so
obsessed with the tools (certification) as opposed to the tasks
(producing a quality product). They are fairly unconcerned with what
happens in between, while our discussion group rarely gets beyond the
mere mechanics of ISO 9000.
Demming stressed that you can't "inspect" quality into a product. Well,
guess what - you can't necessarily "document" quality into a product
either. Can you?
I am not surprised to hear that Japanese code is uncommented and
convoluted. Read "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" if you want to
understand in what ways the Japanese workers are regimented and
conformist, and where they are independent and creative. They love to
be as creative possible, at the same time, conforming to all of the
"rules". It's an old book (1948) but that means that it is not biased
towards the Politically Correct view that quality Japanese products is a
fluke, and the Americans could catch up with them any time they really
"wanted to".
Don't forget that certification is a management technique, sold to
management, not to the people doing the work. And, as a manager, I am
the first to admit that management does not put products out the door.
That is why I am getting so hot for Watts Humphrey's Personal Software
Process (PSP). If your customer is happy (like the consumers of
Japanese products are) then you've already won the war. If you want to
improve your internal processes so that they are "quality" or promote
"quality", then let the people doing the work define the process, and
management can facilitate implementing it (and then go away, thus saving
the company money).
Don E. Wagner
donw@4cs.com
(309) 755-0199 Ext 140
(309) 755-3099 FAX
http://www.4cs.com
A small advance every day
will eventually total
much less than a big advance every
day.
>----------
>From: Dave Grummer[SMTP:grummerd@fsj.co.jp]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 8:41 PM
>To: iso9000-3@quality.org
>Subject: Re: Employed versus Unemployed.
>
>From: Dave Grummer
>Dear Bradford McCormick,
>At 07:11 AM 1/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Dave Grummer wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Dave Grummer
>>> Dear Don DeLauder,
>>> If you were paying attention on previous arguments you would understand
>>>why
>>> this new group arguments have lead in this direction. First I stated in
>>> Japan inefficiency has made this economy strong, which in direct conflict
>>>to
>>> what most ISO consultants would have you to believe. Inefficiency driving
>>>a
>>> growing economy; a wierd idea, but true.
>>[snip]
>>
>>I must have missed the origins of this thread, or else you have here
>>summarized what you've written so now I *can* see what's going on.
>>
>>Inefficiency driving a growing economy makes perfectly good sense
>>to me, and well fits in with my sense of Japan is all about (you
>>have just stated it at last in a form that is really *clear and to the
>>point*).
>>
>>But I have one question: Are you claiming that Japanese do not
>>care about *quality* in the product?
>
>What they care about is the, bottom line, the all powerful ichi man en(Yen).
>Quality is on the list though; somewhere above pinching the secretaries ass
>daily.
>
>
>>
>>Further, whatever the Japanese do or don't do
>>(or some do and some don't),
>>are you asserting that socially productive inefficiency is
>>*incompatible* with producing *quality* products? I would think
>>that Japan is an example of the opposite: *both* socially
>>productive inefficiency *and* quality (ineed, the former
>>fostering the latter by applying more workers to a given task).
>
>If everyone was socially productively inefficient and produced *quality*
>products then this social inefficiency would make sense, but since the US
>doesn't have this social inefficiency then one of your questions comes back
>to haunt me, "Why didn't we do better after WWII?". Then this question
>leads to the question why aren't we doing better now? We are doing OK
>actually but if Japan is so inefficent with its workforce then why aren't we
>clobbering them in the global market?
>Dave grummer
>
>>
>>(I'm sending this to you personally because of having
>>been admonished. If you wish to post it and your reply to
>>the list, that's OK with me.)
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>> Mankind is not the master of all the stuff that exists, but
>> Everyman (woman, child) is a judge of the world.
>>
>>Bradford McCormick, Ed.D.
>>bradmcc@cloud9.net / (914)238-0788
>>27 Poillon Road, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
>>----------------------------------------------
>>Visit my website ==> http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc
>>
>>
>Fusion Systems Japan,Inc.
>No.2 Toshin Aobadai Bldg,9th Fl,
>Aobadai,3-17-18 Meguro-ku,
>Tokyo 153,Japan.
>
>Tel : 011-81-3-5456-7561
>Fax : 011-81-3-5458-4422
>
>grummerd@fsj.co.jp
>http://www.fsj.co.jp
>
>To remove yourself from this list, address a
>
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End of ISO 9000-3 Digest V1 #35
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